Old tank syndrome-ish? Really out of ideas.

[heide264]

I am really at a loss for what to do at this point =(. Bad algae issue all around. Mostly hair.I will try to separate the thread describing my setup a bit to make it easier to read. Bolded some more applicable parts if you want to skim and shoot some ideas anyhow.Setup and History:My 30g reef tank has been set up for about 5 years now, give or take one. Over time I have accumulated about 40-45lbs of live rock, and have about a 1" sand bed. I've always had a slight hair algae problem, but it has continuously gotten worse overtime.
Filtration:
I have a 10g tank that runs off an overflow from the 30g and is pumped back up. The fuge has a 1-2" sandbed, a couple chunks of rock, and some rooted macro algae growing in it (the smooth round leaves - name is escaping me). Some brownish hair algae is in the sump as well but nothing bad. Have a power compact light over the sump that is on 24/7. Not very high current in it - I have tried but it is hard to keep pumps running in it to up the current and the overflow is not the best. Also have an AquaC remora running on the back of the main tank. Have had an emperor power filter (the big model but with only one side on it; not the double sided one) on the back minus the biowheel off and on when needed; have it on now for a while to try and remove some of the algae that gets knocked loose (i admit to not washing the pads as much as I should).
I use RO water from a LFS and buy the premade caribsea saltwater containters.
Do a 5g water change every couple weeks
Water parameters are perfect (0 on the nitrogen cycle levels, 0 P04s, ph = 8.2+-.1, alk I keep a bit higher than average - don't have the levels but its 2/3 up on my test kit, calcium and traces check out too)
Lighting:
Tank is lit with 2x96W PC bulbs about 6-7" above the water. One 20k bulb one 14k (I think). Have them on 7 hours a day at the moment. If i leave them on longer, the algae gets worse; if I turn them off sooner the corals in it start to take a hit. Replace the bulbs one at a time 6 months apart. They get salt creep on them but I try to keep them fairly clean.
Feeding:
The tank only has a percula clown and a yellow watchmen at the moment fish wise, so I feed flake food once maybe twice a week and half of a frozen cube of whatnot - normally brine or krill of some sort - once a week if that.
Don't think it's an issue of overfeeding to say the least.
Livestock:
-Fish: Percula clown and Yellow Watchmen
-Corals: Pink hammer, red monti cap, blue candy, some scattered red shrooms, and the occasional GSP that pops up. Corals are doing great minus the algae that i have to pull off of them.
-Cleanup Crew: bunch of small reef crabs, few snails, emerald crab, forget what else. I have trouble keeping cleanup crews alive for whatever reason. Snails seem to die a couple days after adding them and crabs never last long. It's like my algae is toxic.
Problem:
I've had a continuously growing algae issue. Mostly hair. I have tried manual removal, cutting the lights back, feeding less, more water changes, heavier filtration, adding more cleanup crew, "Marine S.A.T." to try and clear up some of the hair algae to save my corals (don't like to use chemicals, but actually worked pretty well, now just have other forms like bubble algae more so which don't kill my monti cap at least for now), changing flow patterns in the tank - just about everything.
I am starting to think I might have just gotten saturated liverock in the first place from the LFS. They also seem to have hair algae issues in their tanks. Would answer a lot of my problems. I am thinking my next move is to make a lot of base rock myself - I remember seeing a tutorial somewhere, and to replace my liverock in the tank section by section. The live rock is starting to fall apart and mess up my structure anyhow.
I can take some pictures of the setup if anybody thinks it would help. If any other information would help, let me know. Really at a loss for what to do at this point.
Thanks.

 

[small triggers]

yeah,, take some pics so we can see whats goin on..
BUT to start with,,,
have you tied adding a powerhead to increase flow? are there dead spots? gettin cyno or is it all algae?
DO you run any phosphate reducing media? Run anything else?
Ill think of more later,,,,,im sure....

 

[small triggers]

Also,,, have you cleaned your return pump lately?

 

[eric b 125]

heide: what part of the burgh are you in?

 

[heide264]

I actually live in the suburbs towards the butler allegheny border at the moment. I go to school at PSU though (which trusting this tank to my semi-hobby familiar father might be a part of the problem).
I have ran a twofishes phosphate reactor with medium in the sump before with no avail - I have never managed to test ANY phosphates in the tank. But the problem is everything bad related lol. Hair algae is the bulk of it. Have had small cyano issues before (actually used a cyano be-gone chemical to try to get it back in the water stream so we could get rid of it which worked well as far as converting cyano to something else). Also my bubble algae population is increasing.
I'm really not a fan of additives, don't get me wrong. I really am against using them as a long term solution specifically. However, I kinda budge a bit when stuff is on my corals =P.
I will take some pictures when the lights come on tomorrow.
On break for 3 weeks so gonna try to get things cleaned up. Tore all the pumps and equipment apart today and cleaned them out really well.
No correlation between flow and algae so far. I don't think there are any dead spots persay, probably some low flow areas along the bottom though. I have some spare powerheads I can throw in there. My candy gets real testy to higher currents.
Don't persay run anything else; sometimes add some kalk here and there off a drip from a milk jug rigup I made to raise alk/calc/pH a bit. I do notice the algae worsen with softer (lower pH/alk) water.

 

[heide264]

Checked my tank parameters today; still zeros across nitrogen cycle/phosphate. pH is about 8.2ish, almost 8.3 and my alk is actually a bit low (about 1.8ish). I normally drip kalk to keep my alk up, but i can't with my pH being on the high end =/.
I took some photos today. They were taken with my new phone, so still kinda playing around with it. I know it's annoying they aren't on the forums, but they are uploaded to my photoshop account...
http://www.photoshop.com/user/heide2...BTAGC&wf=share
They aren't modified yet and raw from the phone camera so they are FWIW. Basically an algae attack but gives you some idea of the setup.

 

[garick]

Are you certain this RO water from the LFS is legit and not just tap? if the shop doesn't replace its filter cartridges often enough the water will just be poor RO and still have stuff to feed your algae and bacteria. Have you checked phosphates? Phosphates can make things grow really heavily and is one of the main reasons most reefers use RO water. Other than to remove metals, cysts and other things.
Also you should get a low end Nitrate tester. Anything high end won't show up on a normal test kit for salt cause the hair algae will be eating it up and giving you a false reading of 0 on most high end kits.
As for your snails and crabs. Crabs can kill your snails for their shells or each other for their shells. The snails if they are turbo, will fall from a high surface, land on their back and die quickly. Not exactly sure WHY they die on their backs but most of them can't get back over and die.

 

[heide264]

Yeah have never been able to read any phosphates, but the LFS we get the water from isn't my favorite, just short on cash to buy an RO filter (2 more semesters of school left yet). I will run a phosphate test on the LFS water sometime just to make sure again, I know i tested it a while ago but maybe its worse now.
Never saw a low end nitrogen test, I just have the standard one that comes with the ammonia/nitrite. I will try to find one, assuming the LFS has one. But even if it does come up with some small amount, I'm not exactly sure how to fix it. I've been doing 5g water changes every other week (I've been saying 5% but its more like 15-20% I guess considering the rock in it) and have that sump with macro under it. Not sure if I am getting enough water movement through the sump to make it useful, however.
...Maybe it's time for a sump upgrade. The LFS is having a $1 to 1g sale, maybe they have a 20 long or something =)

 

[garick]

Is your protein skimmer efficent enough for your livestock and Corals. What are you feeding with? Perhaps your overfeeding or your foods contain phosphates.
Problems can come from many different sources. The best way to figure out how this came about is to decide WHEN the problem arose and what changed. If in fact your overfeeding, or using foods that have phosphates. That can be a big problem, a better skimmer might help with the overabundance of nutrients however.
A simple way would be to add in a filter media to remove nitrate/phosphates on a larger scale. It has to be getting its nutrients from something to grow as much as you say it seems to be growing.

 

[heide264]

Well I've always had a problem it's just kinda snowballed over the past year with me being at school and my father not having time to work on the tank.
I'm really feeding very little, and I believe if anything the AquaC remora on it is overkill for my tank.
I guess my real question is, is there any way to tell if this is due to the rock possibly being saturated over time.
I've also ran a phosphate reactor for a while, but never seemed to help at all long term or short term. It's really an uphill battle anymore =(.

 

[garick]

Well as I said. Algae is a living thing, it needs light and food to thrive. Somehow yours is getting both. Have you changed your bulbs recently? old bulbs can change spectrum toward the red which can REALLY make hair algae grow since it relies a great deal on the red spectrum. If the live rock you bought was in a tank that had hair algae. Then yes it could easily spread like wildfire from that rock to your entire tank. but even scrubbing your rocks and pulling off the algae will not be sufficient if your environment is providing an excellent breeding ground for the algae.
If in fact the issue is from nutrient overload. Then your best bet will be a phosphate and nitrate removal chemical. That (and my biggest preference) do bigger water changes. If 5 isn't going well, drive it up to 10 or 15.. maybe even 5 a week instead of every 2 weeks. Hair algae will not go away unless something else out competes it for food or you starve it of what it needs... you might even try covering parts of the tank that have no corals on them to starve it of light.

 

[heide264]

I'll crank up the water changes a bit to about 5g weekly and keep the lights on the low side. The bulbs are changed pretty religiously ever 6 months, so they should be in spectrum. I wish I would have just gone with metal halides from the beginning, however.
Would you recommend swapping out any of the rock? I was thinking about making some out of concrete (I remember there being a tutorial on these forums a long time ago in the DIY forum I have to dig up) and swapping it in for the live rock over time.
Also, as far as my sandbed goes, it is about 1-2" deep. Do you think I should be working on cleaning it more or even try to remove most of it? I don't think there is much of my cleanup crew left that was supposed to be cleaning it =/

 

[garick]

Personally I would just do what I could to remove it by hand after a big water change. Removing the rocks may help but all it takes is one tiny patch on a coral and with the system still supplying it with nutrient rich water and light. You'd be right back where you are only with concrete.
You say your corals are doing well despite the heavy covering of hair algae? If so, this to me flags nutrient overload. My reasoning is that some corals require feeding on a regular if sparse basis. IF however your corals are well and your algae is growing it should be due to the abundance of light and nutrient in the water feeding them... I do not know much on what you have coral wise in your tank but any plantish growth relies on both light and food taken from the surrounding area.
If you think it would not hurt your tank/corals. I would do like a 25-30% water change immediately following a heavy hair farming session. Avoid the turbo snails and crabs, Going with Emerald Mithrax (for both hair and bubble algae) and if all else fails. I've heard a Sea Hair will eat nearly all types of algae save for a couple (this is not a lettuce its calleda Sea Hare) as well sometimes a foxface might eat it as well.
However the sea hare is considered to not be reef safe, and can release a toxin into your water if scared or threatened.. So I guess you risk using it. As well blue legged hermits can eat baby algae but will not mess with full grown hair.

 

[sean48183]

Don't worry about clean up crews and taking your rocks out. Both are expensive and a pain in the a$$. I have been at this for six years now and have gone through every possible crappy problem you can have in this hobby.
We need to focus on your sump like you said earlier. What kind of power compact light do you have on your sump? The main thing is we need to give the hair algae a better spot to live than in your display tank. I run an algae scrubber on mine but it is not necessary for your little tank. We need to really pound that small sump of yours with a strong 5k to 65k light. Hair algae will start growing in the sump consuming your macroalgae and growing on everything down there. Take the hair algae out every couple weeks for nutrient removal. I fought this battle for the first year and until I got hair algae growing somewhere else it was neverending.

 

[heide264]

I really don't have much luck with my cleanup crews; they all seem to die quickly. It's almost as if my algae is toxic. I am bending my mind around a full work around. Considering I am limited time and money wise (have to manage to finish everything within a break, and will be gone until spring then summer break), I've kinda prioritized it based off what I can do time/money wise. Let me know what you think.1.) (immediate) I picked up two large rubbermaid containers. I am going to pump a good bit of water out of my display tank tomorrow and into the rubbermaid, and move my corals/clown/blenny over. I also picked up two toilet scrubbing brush type things (made sure they don't have any mildew agents or whatnot in them). I plan on cleaning up the live rock chunk by chunk - structure needs to be rebuilt anyhow as pieces have broken apart and i can't anchor all of my corals anymore. I never cleaned it right in the first place according to what I have read so that might help (6 years too late though). Also might give what cleanup crew I have left a chance to catch up. I would also like to reduce the amount of sand in my tank. It currently has about 1.5", and I think I would like to reduce it to about .5" throughout to prevent any possible issues. Any suggestions how to safely remove some without causing any issues?
2.) (spring or summer) I would like to redo my sump. If you look at the pictures I have posted, it has issues. Functional, but not nearly as much as it should be. I'd like to make one up out of acrylic, it's kindof a weird size due to the 30 being narrow to begin with. Also an issue because of the front center brace in the stand. Any idea if i can temporarily remove that front center brace in AGA stands? As it stands, the return chamber is too small to handle the surge to start a true overflow syphon type ordeal so its literally just an overflow now from a 1" drill; really limits the amount of flow through it. Also I would like to get rid of the sandbed in it - it's a little too deep for my liking now and not sure why it's even in there, the macro algae grows just fine on the rock rubble thats in there. I think with the rock cleaning, I should leave this untouched until things stabilize and I would rather just redo it all at once instead of chunk by chunk. I'd probably say spring break or early summer for this one.
3.) (long term depending on results) Depending on how the rebuild goes, make up some baserock to either replace some of or supplement the current live rock to help easier position corals for both flow and light. As is, it's very hard to position corals in stable places where I actually want them. Also, I'm a bit sketchy about the power compact lighting, and the bulbs are very pricey to replace every six months. Would like to look into different lighting long term.
I am hoping that really scrubbing the rocks off with those brushes will help out. Worst case scenario it should help hold things off until spring/summer when I have more time and money to work with. Let me know if you have any suggestions. This is just what I've brainstormed up tonight, and looking for some input. Thanks for the help so far =)
Sean, just saw your post. I will try to find more light for it. I have a lot laying around actually. Currently it's just a power compact fixture we got for free from the LFS with one looks like a 20" bulb. I bought one of those lights of america but it shorted out and stopped working. Will get on that actually right now. I don't know that there is enough flow through the sump though to make it awfully useful in the mean time =/

 

[sean48183]

That's alright you don't need alot of flow. The water actually needs some time to hang around the sump and get filtered by the algae and then sent back to your main tank. That lights of america light is a great one for a pretty good price. Usually the bulb for that is 65k if I remember correctly. What wattage are you running? If you don't want to do that you could also get one of those clip on flood light fixtures for $5 and put a 23-27 watt compact fluerescent from home depot on there. These baby's kick out alot of light and only cost about $7. Try this and still go ahead with your plans to scrub the rocks with those brushes and let me know in a couple weeks how it turnes out.

 

[heide264]

Yeah I will check it out. Honestly the flow is very poor in the sump though. I am actually using a powerhead as my return =/. I will play with that more when I have some more time next break. Until then I will clean out the display tank and get more light on that sump.
EDIT: I'll be darned if I didn't go downstairs and find an old 2x25W incandescent light fixture. I plugged it in and both bulbs lit up. Going to replace them with those screw in power compact-ish bulbs tomorrow. Man, I forgot how yellow those old bulbs were! Have spare saltwater set out for the rinsing and such. Will take some pictures as I go hopefully and post them for reference.

 

[tywtly13]

Can't really help you with your algae problem, but I am here to tell you that that is an ocellaris clown, not a percula. Sorry I can't help

 

[florida joe]

this may not be a popular opinion but some times you need to know when its time to start over again especially with a smaller size tank such as yours. what type of corals do you have

 

[heide264]

Just a monti cap, hammer, blue candy, some scattered gsp's, and red shrooms throughout. They've all grown a whole lot though; take a look at that album I posted. I'm gonna scrub it down and see where that puts me.
Not too far off from starting over at this point =(.
Thanks for the point out on the clown haha.