OMG!!! Enough is enough

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2961581
See any more terrorist attacks on the homeland after 9-11?
You're welcome...
Ask the 3000+ dead American soldiers whose lives were wasted in a fruitless attempt to impress Daddy-Bush whether there were any terrorist attacks. Terror comes in many varieties.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2961744
Ask the 3000+ dead American soldiers whose lives were wasted in a fruitless attempt to impress Daddy-Bush whether there were any terrorist attacks. Terror comes in many varieties.
Actually we've lost over 4,000 soldiers in the War on Terrorism. And while those that died on 9-11 had no idea what was coming, our brave men/women in the service have chosen to take up arms and face it.
What you call fruitless I call a stunning success. 30 million liberated, freedoms unseen in this part of the world, and elections that quietly went by virtually unnoticed by the rest of the world 2 weeks ago.
Impress Daddy Bush? Is that what the leading Democrats were doing when they authorized the use of force in Iraq?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2961744
Ask the 3000+ dead American soldiers whose lives were wasted in a fruitless attempt to impress Daddy-Bush whether there were any terrorist attacks. Terror comes in many varieties.

Half the population in The U.S. owned their own homes under President. A higher percentage than any other previous administration. Economic Prosperity comes in many forms.....
Unemployment rate was lower under Bush than it had been in 30+ years.....Economic prosperity comes in many forms....
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2961767
Impress Daddy Bush? Is that what the leading Democrats were doing when they authorized the use of force in Iraq?
Not to mention, were the democrats trying to impress Messiah Obama by passing the largest SPENDING bill in U.S. history?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Slaughtering Cattle to Make the Sun Rise
Many “primitive” religions confuse cause and effect. The priest tells you to sacrifice an animal (or sometimes a human being) to make sure that the rains come, so that there will be a bountiful harvest. Would the rains come anyway? Who knows? Why take chances?
President Obama and most Democratic members of Congress insist that a crisis will become a catastrophe if we don’t pass this pork-laden stimulus package right now. But imagine my surprise when I recently read the Congressional Budget Office’s January 8, 2009 projection for the next ten years (available at http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9..._Testimony.pdf). The report explicitly says on page 1 that they assume “that current laws and policies regarding federal spending and taxation remain the same...” And their prediction on page 2? “CBO anticipates that the current recession, which started in December 2007, will last until the second half of 2009, making it the longest recession since World War II. (The longest such recessions otherwise, the 1973–1974 and 1981–1982 recessions, both lasted 16 months. If the current recession were to continue beyond midyear, it would last at least 19 months.)”
This is not surprising. Boom and bust cycles are a natural part of a capitalist economy. The 2003-2007 boom was spectacular, and even if there were no subprime

[hr]
madness going on, this would have been quite a bust. But notice that CBO was, only a month ago (when this stimulus package was being written), still expecting the recession to end in the second half of this year, even without the stimulus package—-and Congress’s own economists told this to Congress. Congress knew this, while insisting that “something has to be done now.”
Much (perhaps even most) of the enormous debt burden that this stimulus bill will handcuff onto the next generation will be for spending that will not start until after the Congressional Budget Office believes the recession will be over. So why was there this unseemly rush to get this bill passed?
The sun is going to rise shortly. The priest is insisting that we need to slaughter that bull right now or the sun won’t rise. But here’s the difference between that primitive priest and the Congressional majority that just passed the stimulus bill: the majority knows that the sun is about to rise—-and they are terrified that if we wait much longer, we’ll figure out that the sun was going to rise anyway, and this enormous burden of debt to pay off special interests wasn’t necessary.
 

turningtim

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2961581
See any more terrorist attacks on the homeland after 9-11?
You're welcome...
Wow Journey I had no idea that you know that there were going to be more attacks. Last I heard you can't prove a negative. Lets all give the previous administration a great big pat on the back for avoiding that giant comet that didn't hit earth while he was in office.

Everyone is talking about "winning" the war. But I thought we had won? what several years ago. President Bush told me so.
 

turningtim

Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2961640
Assuming, for a moment for the sake of a clean argument that the GOP did screw up previously, that does not mean a free ticket for any subsequent party/administration to do whatever they want.
As an independent, you should be careful here because this argument sounds a lot like those liberals who shout "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT, IT'S OUR TURN"
Again, assuming that the Bush administration made bad choices, they are only a part of the party at large which is being told now to shut up. The alleged failures of the Bush administration does not constitute valid reasoning that the entire GOP should just lay back and let democrats do whatever they want.
Even if the entire GOP was equally responsible for the past, that doesn't mean that they are incapable to see that current actions are a mistake.
Don't throw yourself into the pool of liberals who now think that the results of the election and/or past decisions of the GOP have given them a universal trump card that they can play to let nobody challenge the forward momentum of their plans.
No I'm not but what is driving me nuts is that the opposing party is jumping up and down for something they have clearly done in the past. Bush out spent every Pres before him. And Obama will out spend him trying to fix it. But jeez Loise can we give him a touch more than 30 days?
The bottom line is this. Someone has to pay for this. End of story!
 

turningtim

Active Member
Darth please tel me when we will stop spending on a war that we have already won. Sorry i see no end. Even if we win? We will be stuck there for years to come and without any payoff.......
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2961851
Darth please tel me when we will stop spending on a war that we have already won. Sorry i see no end. Even if we win? We will be stuck there for years to come and without any payoff.......
We've all but rebuilt a country in less than 10 years. There is no way that isn't saying something.
As for payoff, who traditionally are some of our largest trading partners? Japan and Germany, who did we rebuild after WW2? Heck it took decades to rebuild the south after the civil war. Do you not realise there were terrorist type actions for years after we took over Germany. It took 15 year from when we declared war till Germany was really on its feet again.
For you or liberals to think, that there was nothing good that came out of this, it took too long, it was a quagmire or whatever other buzzword to be used. Means you have to completely disregard history in terms of a post war effort.
Demanding some sort of payoff today, is like fragging a one inch green bali then wondering why it isn't a full colony a few weeks later. It just isn't going to happen yet. They aren't there yet.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2961842
Wow Journey I had no idea that you know that there were going to be more attacks. Last I heard you can't prove a negative. Lets all give the previous administration a great big pat on the back for avoiding that giant comet that didn't hit earth while he was in office.

Everyone is talking about "winning" the war. But I thought we had won? what several years ago. President Bush told me so.

So you honestly believe that if we had lobbed a few missiles in the general area where we believed Osama to have been. Called that a preemptive strike and that was our retaliation for Sept 11. That we would not have seen a strike again? It stands to reason, that with the record of past acts, something would have happened since then in 7 years that have past. Fighting on someone else's soil is much better than fighting on our own IMO.
When exactly did he tell you this? He never told me this. Oh he said mission complete. But if I remember right he never declared the war won, over, or actually complete even. There are many missions operating daily in any war....I admit it may have felt like we won the war, it may have looked like it was all over. But never was it said the "war is won".
My nephew did 2 tours in Iraq, he enlisted infantry to go. He saw 5 IED's go off around him. The 6th left him disabled, and all around him at the time dead.

My youngest niece finished boot camp last October. She enlisted to "fight for your freedom uncle". Keep in mind this is after my nephew had been injured. These are all true American heroes unlike the cowards who say we cant win...why try. They say we can win, I'll die trying.
I suppose we should have never fought the Brittish? Surely that was a war we couldn't have possibly won.
 

harris28

Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2961851
Darth please tel me when we will stop spending on a war that we have already won. Sorry i see no end. Even if we win? We will be stuck there for years to come and without any payoff.......
Yes we will be there for years. Like many wars before we will still be there. I have spent many times in Saudi in the air force for a war that happened back in the early 90's, I've spent a year in Korea for a war that happened way before that. So what, we are there to prevent flare ups. I think we are winning the war, so many programs were put into place after 9-11 and those programs have stopped countless more attempts. Sure it took a big blow to the US for something to happen but you cant say for a minute that we are not winning. The fact is Obama is wanting to cut defense spending and what will that do? Take away from programs that have stopped attacks and reduce our military. Our military is a volunteer force and those people serving in harms way are trying to keep you free and all you all are doing is complaining! Bush might not have done great things but I think he made smart tough decisions about the war.
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2961847
No I'm not but what is driving me nuts is that the opposing party is jumping up and down for something they have clearly done in the past. Bush out spent every Pres before him. And Obama will out spend him trying to fix it. But jeez Loise can we give him a touch more than 30 days?
If it takes a trillion dollars to "fix" the economy then it takes a trillion dollars to fix the economy. I just would like some confidence level that we've done our homework.
Your point about giving him more than 30 days is apt.
However, many, including the Obama administration, admits that we will likely not see any significant positive impact from this package for some time.
So my question is why the enormous urgency to drive this through? If we are going to wait, say a year, to see significant impact, then what is another week... another... month... to ensure that we fully understand exactly what it is we need to do?
What this looks like to me is that the democrats are trying to ram through all of the spending projects that they've wanted for the last 12 years. They've decided to spin the economic crisis into justificiation to pursue their spending agendas, pet projects, etc. I think we can all agree that this package has an awful lot of spending in it that can be more efficiently spent towards the goal of producing jobs.
Many people accuse Bush of doing the same thing with the Iraq conflict... leveraging the events around 9/11 into justification to pursue his personal agenda. Those people, whether they are right or wrong in their beliefs of this, should certainly have some perspective when it comes to seeing the Obama administration doing what appears to be exactly the same thing.
Not to mention the fact that Pelosi basically wrote the whole thing herself. People talk about how dangerous Obama is yada yada yada... be that as it may, IMO it pales in comparison to what that egotistical, manipulative, power hungry woman is capable of.
 

turningtim

Active Member
Doc, I can prove a historical pattern for a bunch of things doesn't mean that they WILL happen. Right? Again you can not prove a negative.
Lobbing bombs into an area where a know terrorist is is a bit different then an all out air strike on a country that had nothing to do with terrorist attacks on us. Wasn't the war for WMD and no fly zones? You said it yourself fighting on their soil. Same result our troops at risk. And t6o what ends are we attaining in this war. We have already said that we are not forcing our lifestyle on them. What are we gaining?
When someone says mission accomplished you kinda get the idea its over.
I have never stated or disrespected anyone in the military ever. My family goes back a long way and I have lost some. My concern is more in the value of what we're doing. I see none.
Harris, I am stating my feeling and opinions on this issue. I have dutifully paid more taxes than 80% of this country. When everyone starts paying 40% and writes checks to the IRS for 50+ large I'll stop stating my opinion. As far as keeping me free. My father, uncles and grandparents all have kept us free. You want to talk about war. Talk to my in laws that were forced from their homes, trash property, thrown in to a camp and lost everything in 1939 b/c of their religion!
 

turningtim

Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2962010
If it takes a trillion dollars to "fix" the economy then it takes a trillion dollars to fix the economy. I just would like some confidence level that we've done our homework.
Your point about giving him more than 30 days is apt.
However, many, including the Obama administration, admits that we will likely not see any significant positive impact from this package for some time.
So my question is why the enormous urgency to drive this through? If we are going to wait, say a year, to see significant impact, then what is another week... another... month... to ensure that we fully understand exactly what it is we need to do?
What this looks like to me is that the democrats are trying to ram through all of the spending projects that they've wanted for the last 12 years. They've decided to spin the economic crisis into justificiation to pursue their spending agendas, pet projects, etc. I think we can all agree that this package has an awful lot of spending in it that can be more efficiently spent towards the goal of producing jobs.
Many people accuse Bush of doing the same thing with the Iraq conflict... leveraging the events around 9/11 into justification to pursue his personal agenda. Those people, whether they are right or wrong in their beliefs of this, should certainly have some perspective when it comes to seeing the Obama administration doing what appears to be exactly the same thing.
Not to mention the fact that Pelosi basically wrote the whole thing herself. People talk about how dangerous Obama is yada yada yada... be that as it may, IMO it pales in comparison to what that egotistical, manipulative, power hungry woman is capable of.
ScSi I can see the point but wasn't there a bunch of things just rammed through before the change in leadership? This crisis is a crisis. Everyone is just chasing their tail.
 

beazalbob69

Member
People do things for their own self interests. From the homeless beggar to the president himself. Obama is no different and neither was Bush. I doubt any of this stimulus will stimulate anybody except who the people who wrote it want to stimulate....ummmmmm stimulate

And I am truly sorry if I offend anyone by this next comment but..
Most of the people I know who go into the military do it because they dont have any better options or for the sign on bonus or to prove that they are true Men or Women. They dont do it to help some poor Iraqi on the other side of the planet. I guess that leads back to my 1st point.
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2962102
ScSi I can see the point but wasn't there a bunch of things just rammed through before the change in leadership?
Ahh perhaps.
But Bush wasn't the one promising CHANGE. He wasn't the one that campaigned against McCain saying that McCain represented "Business as usual in Washington." Obama was the one that promised to bring transparency to government, to end the partisan politics.
Aside from the fact that the actions of one administration hardly justifies similar behavior of another, Obama is the one that promised that we could
hold him to a higher standard. So some do, and his supporters berate them, saying that since Bush did it, so can he.
That's not change I can believe in.
Originally Posted by beazalbob69

http:///forum/post/2962110
And I am truly sorry if I offend anyone by this next comment but..
Most of the people I know who go into the military do it because they dont have any better options or for the sign on bonus or to prove that they are true Men or Women. They dont do it to help some poor Iraqi on the other side of the planet. I guess that leads back to my 1st point.
You're not sorry. If you truly understood the level of insult you are throwing here, you wouldn't have said it.
I work with several individuals who served over there. I know of at least one member here who has a husband over there right now. I know the people I work with did it because they have a level of pride in their country and believe in something.
These people that did the job, for whatever reasons they did it, deserve my and your respect. If you don't like the war, criticize the leaders, not the troops.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2961689
Everyone take a break from politics for a moment and let me ask a stupid question...well, actually it's not stupid, my 6 year old asked me and I really couldn't anwser it. While we were driving the other day, I was explaining to the kids why we were cutting back and why we couldn't go out to eat as often. They started questioning me. I answered that everything is a little tight right now, people don't have as much money, yada..yada...yada. From nowhere, my 6 yr. old asks in a very serious tone...."Dad, whose got it all? Where did all the money go?" He wasn't thinking in terms of the total economic picture. He thinks in terms of his allowance, coins and cash.
I scratched my head. The people don't have it, unless a wealthy few are hoarding it. The banks don't have it, because they are in trouble. Is it overseas where we overpurchased ourselves? I don't think the Gov. has it, since they are having to send us into a deeper deficit to give out more. Where is the money, the physical money that was changing hands just two to three years ago?
A lot of the loss is not an actual loss. Dollar and cents. Most people don't keep their savings in federal reserve notes (since they don't pay interest) but in other forms stocks, bonds other types of notes. So their value dropped compared to the USD. And thus the "big losses" that are discussed.
Make your kid pay for a piece of paper and say this is worth X as long as your brother wants it. Then convince the brother that he doesn't want it anymore. Then lets your kid try to sell it to the other brother. If the other brother doesn't want it. (the rest of the market) then it is worthless since most "paper's" value doesn't actually reflect an actual asset but only a portion of one...
 

harris28

Member
Originally Posted by beazalbob69
http:///forum/post/2962110
And I am truly sorry if I offend anyone by this next comment but..
Most of the people I know who go into the military do it because they dont have any better options or for the sign on bonus or to prove that they are true Men or Women. They dont do it to help some poor Iraqi on the other side of the planet. I guess that leads back to my 1st point.
Actually I had better things to do. I had a 4 year scholarship to school, I had a good job. I did it because I felt I owed my country. People before me gave thier lives so we can display the flag and be free, so I figured I owed them the respect. Plus i feel every young man or woman could benefit from the military. It has taught me alot and I do not regret all those time I was in a gas mask in a bunker (140 degree heat) in saudia arabia waiting for some bomb to hit us. Unless you have served you have no right to say why people join.
But you know this has nothing to do with the original post but it just erks me when people down play the m,ilitary and what they do. They sacrifice everything to make sure we are free and people at home with no military ties doggs them. Well why dont those people go to a comunist country and live and see what that is like and maybe you will appreciate our military alittle more.
As far as the presidents go, i am republican and while Obama is our president I have no choice but to back him. i might not agree with some stuff but other things he has done I do agree with. I'm am not saying Bush was perfect by any means but he had to make desicions. I mean think about anyway, the presidents all have advisors that tell them what to do and what to say so really we should be talking about thier advisors. but I beleive this stimulus package is going to do nothing but cost us more taxes. Wether you pay 50+ large ones to the IRS or hardley anything at all, it is still all relative and a percentage of income so that argument is mute.
 

turningtim

Active Member
Your right it would be mut if everyone paid 40%. But they don't. On top of that we that pay the most get the least. You right its all relative. Its all OUR money.....
 
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