OMG my nitrates are over 100!

[markc212]

Need some hardcore advice from those in the know. I've been trying to bring my nitrates down but I can't seem to do it. For the past 3 weeks, my nitrates have been sitting at 100+.
Here's my setup that's been running 2 yrs:
75G reef tank
9 small - medium size fish (1 rabbit, 1 blenny, 1 jawfish, 1 big clown, 5 small damsels)
2 urchins (1 tuxedo, 1 longspine)
2 med shrimp (1 cleaner, 1 coral banded)
1 med carpet anemone
1 brittle star
Small CUC (mexican turbos, bunch of hermits, a ton of scutus)
Small amount of corals (mostly zoos, plays, and shrooms, 1 hammer, 1 galaxea, some star polyps)
100 lbs of live rock
plenty of live sand
fluval 305 canister filter with ceramics, carbon and phosphate filter
hob skimmer
hob refugium with plenty of chaeto
3 Koralia 750 powerheads and 1 small wavemaker
Nice led lights on a progressive 14 hr cycle
Nitrite: 0
pH: 8.2
ammonia: fine
Calcium & Alkalinity tested fine
temp: 77
Nitrate: 100+
Phosphate: off the scale
At this point, I've done 10% water changes every day for a week, and changed out the carbon and phosphate bags in the canister. Still no movement on the nitrates. I ran the test kit off of the RODI unit, and it comes out with 0 nitrates, so I don't think it's a bad water source. What am I missing? I hate seeing that API test kit turn up bright red every time.
Maybe boost the CUC?
Starting to feel lost and desperate.

 

[flower]

Hello,
Are the inverts still alive and healthy? If so your nitrates are not 100+...nor the phosphates off the scale if if the corals are fine. After 40+ all your critters except the fish would be dead.
Are you using API test kits? They read super high nitrates when it's actually quite normal.

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3504663
Hello,
Are the inverts still alive and healthy? If so your nitrates are not 100+...nor the phosphates off the scale if if the corals are fine. After 40+ all your critters except the fish would be dead.
Are you using API test kits? They read super high nitrates when it's actually quite normal.
+1
Double check the test kit. Maybe take some tank water to the LFS and have them test it too.
If the nitrates are still high, your canister filter may be the reason. What is your cleaning schedule for the canister?? Also, I would try to do the largest WC you can do with the containers you have access to. 10% each day for a week is not the same as a 70% WC. If you could do a 30% water change that would be better than 10% IMO.
I would also dial back the lighting schedule a bit. 14 hrs is a little long.

 

[beaslbob]

First of all in a tank fully balanced out with macro or other algaes it actually could be a good thing to have a short nitrate spike. What happens should something go bump in the night (or in a new tank) is the macros will consume ammonia for nitrogen over nitrates. Hence an initial nitrate spike as the macros are preventing the dangerous ammonia/nitrIte spikes.
Then as aerobic bacteria build up the marcros are forced to consume nitrates for nitrogen and the nitrates start falling.
If that's what's happening then it actually is a good thing and should correct itself shortly.
If not then you have a more mature tank and you simply need to increase you nitrater consumers. So try allowing the chaeto to expand until nitrates drop down. You could even just partition the display so a small area is set aside for chaeto.
my .02

 

[markc212]

Flower, if the API test kit is unreliable, what would you recommend as a better test kit? The inverts all seem to be doing fine. Recently I lost an LPS coral and maybe that should've been a warning. But the zoos and shrooms seem to be doing OK. Maybe not spreading and flourishing like a couple of months ago, but certainly not dying.
SweaterVest, I actually did take a sample to the LFS and they gave me the same diagnosis. Off the charts nitrates and phosphates. Everything else was fine. I hadn't cleaned the canister filter in a while, so I changed out 2 of the 4 pads with a phosphate pad and a nitrate pad, and also changed out the carbon bags and replaced 1 with carbon (sea chem), the other with a phosphate bag (phos zorb). I was hoping to see a change due to the maintenance, but nothing has changed in the last 2 weeks.
As for water changes, the time it takes to pump for a 20% water change using my RODI unit is all day. I might just have to go buy RODI water from the LFS to make a dent in this.
Beaslbob, the idea of partitioning an area for chaeto is an interesting one. I'll see if I can set that up. I have plenty of chaeto, and it grows so fast that it gets all packed in in my small HOB fuge. Maybe I can craft a box out of egg crate and suspend it on one end of the DT temporarily.
A couple of other ideas I had:

• 
  My skimmer isn't pulling as much gunk out of my system as it has in the past. Maybe I'm losing some efficiency there. Seems to be operating fine, and maybe this is just because I've tried to dial down the feeding. I also have a couple less fish than I used to due to a hawkfish getting crushed by a rockslide and a mama clown chasing the papa clown to death.
  Maybe my nitrates have been high after water changes because I'm trying to stir up the sand a bit prior to siphoning to pull out a higher percentage of nitrates in the water column. Maybe the water needs extra time to settle? That's a shot in the dark.

These have been great suggestions!

 

[mr. limpid]

The only thing I can add is rinse off all your frozen foods in RO water B4 feeding. Are you feeding any flake foods they are know to add phosphates? Also good you replaced all your pads in the canister when they get full they will degrade and release stuff back into the tank. It is better to replace more often to prevent this from happening. When I do a large water change, I run my RO unit over night into a plastic 30 gal. garbage can. I have marked on outside of can 10gal, 15gal heights.

 

[markc212]

Ooh, the garbage can idea is killer! Hadn't thought of that. I've had more than a couple of instances where I forgot about the RODI unit running, only to find a small flood in the kitchen. Damn 5 gallon buckets!

 

[sweatervest13]

32g Brute Trash can (like $30.00 at Lowes or HD). Get the base with casters for and extra $25- $30 and you can wheel it anywhere (not up or down stairs, lol).

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by markc212 http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3504681
Beaslbob, the idea of partitioning an area for chaeto is an interesting one. I'll see if I can set that up. I have plenty of chaeto, and it grows so fast that it gets all packed in in my small HOB fuge. Maybe I can craft a box out of egg crate and suspend it on one end of the DT temporarily.
Do it. LOL
what I did on my 55g was move everything forward and cram in an egg crate about 3" in front of the back glass. And added a couple of 2 tube cheapie shop light behind the tank pointing forward. fixtures were $10 tubes like $7/pair (6500k).
so the back 3" of the tank was a refugium where macros and pods thrived.
My tangs were constantly grazing on the macros the poked through the egg crate and smaller fish would even swim through the grid to graze on pods in the back area.
best of all nitrates went from 80-160ppm to unmeasureable in three weeks. Phosphates dropped down a few weeks later.
my .02

 

[flower]

LOL...well you got a huge response...and many choices to make. I also use a 37g plastic garbage can... however I purchased it new, and marked it FISH ONLY. Macros are awesome...they remove phosphates and nitrates better than any other method. The caulerpa prolifera looks nice, and it's easy to harvest, so no need to section off an area. It looks like turtle grass and you can control the area you want it to grow so your corals are safe from being smothered. Unlike the grape caulerpa, it won't go sexual on you and turn the water to what looks like milk.
I use SeaChem test kits, they come with a regent, so I can double check and be sure the results are accurate.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with Mr. Limpid somewhat...I never replaced all my pads in a canister filter...lots of good bacteria lives on those pads, and replacing them all at once could imbalance the entire system. I used to get a small ammonia spike because I over cleaned my canister, the instructions even tell you to only replace half at any one time. The longer you go between changing media in a canister, the more good bacteria that accumulates on them. Bacteria in a fish tank matches the bioload, the canister filter is part of your system, if you add too many new fish at once, you get an ammonia spike...if you take out too much media at once, you get the same result.
HOWEVER...Mr Limpid is correct that canisters do hoard nitrates if not properly maintained. Good bacteria feeds on the ammonia and nitrites from the system, and poops (for lack of a better word) them into nitrates. Also he is correct that the food you feed your fish also puts phosphates into your system. Regular water changes export the nitrates and phosphates from your system, which is one reason why we do regular water changes.
A skimmer has nothing to do with removing phosphates or nitrates, it removes the extra organic matter that the algae and coral feeds on...what your coral doesn't absorb, algae does...a skimmer is designed to help keep a balance so algae doesn't grow out of control, and the CUC of snails and such removes the algae that does manage to grow, everything working together to keep the tank clean.

 

[mr. limpid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by markc212 http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3504725
Ooh, the garbage can idea is killer! Hadn't thought of that. I've had more than a couple of instances where I forgot about the RODI unit running, only to find a small flood in the kitchen. Damn 5 gallon buckets!
I still do that. I run gallon jugs for top water. Luck ally I have my RO unit in the laundry room so there is a floor drain a foot away from the containers.

 

[mr. limpid]

P.S. I glad to see that Flower will agree and disagree on my comments.

Makes conversation more interesting. Hope you feeling better these days Flower?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3504862
P.S. I glad to see that Flower will agree and disagree on my comments.

Makes conversation more interesting. Hope you feeling better these days Flower?
I feel so bad at some of my snippy comments that were made in the past, and I'm trying really hard to curb my sharp tongue. So..LOL..I spoke on what and why I disagreed, and made sure your good points were not disregarded. It's never too late to batter myself..I hope anyway.
My health is not so good but I'm still here, so it isn't the end of the world for me yet.

 

[markc212]

Regarding the garbage can idea, is there a specific way to "prep" the can? I have a sneaking suspicion that the can may have some residual chemicals from the manufacturing process. Do you guys clean it out somehow without tainting it? I'm sure that detergent is a horrible idea. Bleach would probably be just as bad. Maybe you just rinse it down prior to use?

 

[slice]

You need "Food Grade" plastic bins. Others will have to tell you specific brands and types, but
your suspicion is correct; you have to choose your vessel judiciously.

 

[femmeartist51]

Can the macro algae be put in the fish tank, or do I have to put it somewhere else, like in my filter system?? Need to control my nitrates

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by femmeartist51 http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3509729
Can the macro algae be put in the fish tank, or do I have to put it somewhere else, like in my filter system?? Need to control my nitrates
Yes to both.
The problem is that most saltwater fish eat the macros. So usually best to protect them in some kind of refugium. Which could be a simple partition to keep the fish and macros apart.
FWIW it can be common for nitrAtes to initially be high as the algae is consuming ammonia for nitrogen. Then as aerobic bacteria build up and consume the ammonia, nitrates will go down as the macro use nitrates for nitorgen.
my .02

 

[markc212]

I've been testing like crazy, and here's what I've determined:
New RO unit yields 0-minimal phosphates
New RO water in garbage can: off the charts!
Something about the garbage can is raising my phosphates. Where can I get a food-grade garbage can? I looked at Home Depot and Lowe's and they have no idea what I'm talking about. Any clues about maybe prepping the can before I try using it again?

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by markc212 http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3511015
I've been testing like crazy, and here's what I've determined:
New RO unit yields 0-minimal phosphates
New RO water in garbage can: off the charts!
Something about the garbage can is raising my phosphates. Where can I get a food-grade garbage can? I looked at Home Depot and Lowe's and they have no idea what I'm talking about. Any clues about maybe prepping the can before I try using it again?
Get some macro algae growing in the garbage can. The macros (and pods) can also feed your fish in the display.
Shhhhhhhhh super secret hints not popular in our mechanical filtered environment:
(hint if you just top off the display then you don't need all the "good" water stored to begin with.)
(hint2: IMHO and therefore not worth much, if you get the macros thriving they will condition the water to remove not only ammonia/nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide but add oxygen and remove things like copper and other stuff as well.)
still just my .02

 

[markc212]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393818/omg-my-nitrates-are-over-100#post_3511337
Get some macro algae growing in the garbage can. The macros (and pods) can also feed your fish in the display.
Shhhhhhhhh super secret hints not popular in our mechanical filtered environment:
(hint if you just top off the display then you don't need all the "good" water stored to begin with.)
(hint2: IMHO and therefore not worth much, if you get the macros thriving they will condition the water to remove not only ammonia/nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide but add oxygen and remove things like copper and other stuff as well.)
still just my .0e
Hmmm. This is a really interesting idea. So if I'm reading this correctly, you're suggesting that I make a ton of RO water, put a potentially large amount of macros in the garbage can, and let the macros pull the phosphates out over time. Maybe a couple of weeks later, use the "cleaner" water to top off the DT. I guess I'd have to put a light over the garbage can to keep the macros growing. I don't know much about macros. I have chaeto in the HOB fuge currently. Does chaeto require a certain temperature to survive? I might need to add a heater and a source of flow too.
If the phosphates in the can are ridiculously high, how long do you think I'd have to have the macros eating away at it before the water is usable in the tank? I'm guessing it could be months! But, maybe once the chaeto does it's job, there won't be any more phosphates to leach out of the garbage bin and I can use it as a large collection bin again.
My current alternative is to fill up my 5 buckets with RO water and put that into the DT. The buckets don't seem to have this phosphate issue. Maybe I'll just use my garbage can to collect the old waste water from the DT.
This whole phosphates issue is seriously turning my brain upside down.