mikeyfishy
Member
Weeks? Don't most people see an ammonia spike within the first day or two? And... why would I be seeing nitrites already on day 2?
Mike
Mike
Ongoing saga: all fish die in days
- Thread starter mikeyfishy
- Start date
saltn00b
Active Member
every system is different, my first tank cycled with just LR, (no shrimp jump start) and it took about 5-6 days to test for anything, and then over three days it jumped dramatically. just test for the big three every day or every two days to get a good guage on whats happening in your cycle. dating and writing down the results so you can see what happened over a period of time is a good practice
mikeyfishy
Member
I just tested it and now I'm getting levels. My ammonia is 1.0 and my nitrites are 0.25. That brings up a new question. How high should I let the ammonia/nitrites go? I'm cycling with fish (4 damsels) and I've read where some people recommend not letting it get higher than 1.0 during cycling while others say it can go as high as 10.0. What should I do, and if I decide to keep it at 1.0 or lower, should I do that with water changes (which are supposedly a no-no during cycling) or using a product like Prime on occasion to lower it but not quite get rid of it? I'm tempted to just leave it alone as adding too much stuff might have been my problem last time.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
saltn00b
Active Member
yeesh, i didnt know you were doing it with fish. its an outdated practice, but people say the damsels can live through anything. if they were not a factor, then i would say let it go as high as its gonna go, and do no water changes until ammo and trites are zero. the change is to remove the trates that are left over at the end of the cycle, which dont break down. if you do a change in the middle of a cycle, you are going to prolong the cycle process, but you will keep your fish healthier. this could drag out your cycle process for months, and i would not add anything until you are sure that no more ammo is presently continuing the cycle. sort of a sticky situation, so you can eaither just let what happen happen, and hope your fish survive, or drag out your cycle for months. OR you can take the damsels out now, return them to the store cause you may not want them in the future anyway, and let the cycle go from there, as it already started.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Hey Mickeyfishey,
I myself have been a freshwater aqaurist for over 20 years. And recently converted to SW last march. I can honestly say that if not for the help from the very experienced and non monetary driven people on this board I would not have made it this far.
I have learned that while I like and want to trust my LFS's around here there arent that many that can match the experience that is available here. I see that some of the :happyfish BIG FISH have come to youre aid here and are working hard to help you through. Why would they do this? ONLY because they love the hobby sooo much. When people like BANG GUY, OPHIURA, VIPER, BETH, THOMAS,(please forgive me if I forgot someone) as well as most of the people on here come to you aid you can trust there advise to be about the best you could ask for. You need to slow down, ask before you do anyhting so to speek approach. The same rules for FW dont apply for SW.
Also I have a few FS here that I CANNOT buy fish from anymore, inverts are fine.
They thrive well from these places, but the fish I've gotten from them have ALL perished.
The fish I have gotten from other stores though, ALL have survived.
I believe it to be with the suppliers they have and not necessarily their mishandlings. I never had any problems with their FW stuff. :notsure:
Charlie
I myself have been a freshwater aqaurist for over 20 years. And recently converted to SW last march. I can honestly say that if not for the help from the very experienced and non monetary driven people on this board I would not have made it this far.
Charlie
mikeyfishy
Member
I sure appreciate all the help. So far, my "reset" tank is doing well. The 4 damsels are doing fine, eating, and there are no signs of stress at the moment. I'm on my third day with ammonia readings about 1.0 but the nitrites have climbed to about 0.4 which gives me hope that the first stage of the cycling process is well under way. At this point, I plan to do nothing but wait patiently. I think my biggest problem the first go around was "messing" with things too much during the cycling process. This time I plan to take a more hands-off approach and just monitor things, allowing time for things to happen naturally.
I know no one here is a fan of the old-school method of cycling with fish, but that's my preference and I plan to continue with it unless I see the damsels starting to show signs of stress. If that should happen, I have a place to take them and can continue the rest of the cycling fishless if necessary. At this point, I don't expect to have to do that, but time will tell.
Mike
I know no one here is a fan of the old-school method of cycling with fish, but that's my preference and I plan to continue with it unless I see the damsels starting to show signs of stress. If that should happen, I have a place to take them and can continue the rest of the cycling fishless if necessary. At this point, I don't expect to have to do that, but time will tell.
Mike
1journeyman
Active Member
Ammonia burns their gills. That damage cannot be undone. At the point you see "distress" it's too late.
Water changes during a cycle do not prolong a cycle. Water changes should be done to keep ammonia below 1. At this level even your beneficial bacteria is damaged by ammonia.
Water changes during a cycle do not prolong a cycle. Water changes should be done to keep ammonia below 1. At this level even your beneficial bacteria is damaged by ammonia.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by saltn00b
interesting, i had read otherwise, and seen some evidence of that in other threads as well.
Common misconception. I posted a while back an email I got from Dr. Fenner regarding this. He confirmed levels of ammonia near 1 are toxic.
Water changes do not remove a significant amount of bacteria. The bacteria is found living and breeding in the substrate, rocks, glass, etc.
interesting, i had read otherwise, and seen some evidence of that in other threads as well.
Common misconception. I posted a while back an email I got from Dr. Fenner regarding this. He confirmed levels of ammonia near 1 are toxic.
Water changes do not remove a significant amount of bacteria. The bacteria is found living and breeding in the substrate, rocks, glass, etc.
mikeyfishy
Member
I'm not sure which advice to follow. There are numerous threads here that say you'll prolong the cycle if you do water changes before the cycle is complete. So now I've heard both. I've also heard that hardy fish like damsels don't undergo significant stress until ammonia levels reach as high as 10.0, and they are commonly used to cycle tanks without water changes. Not sure which advice to follow at this point.
Also, every fish being shipped to a LFS is subject to ammonia burn. Ammonia levels in the shipping containers regularly reach 0.3 to 0.5 during shipping and they can be in those conditions for 24 to 48 hours or even more, as some flights get diverted, delayed, etc. Harmful, yes, but they do recover so I'm not convinced that ammonia burn causes permanent/irrecoverable damage.
Mike
Also, every fish being shipped to a LFS is subject to ammonia burn. Ammonia levels in the shipping containers regularly reach 0.3 to 0.5 during shipping and they can be in those conditions for 24 to 48 hours or even more, as some flights get diverted, delayed, etc. Harmful, yes, but they do recover so I'm not convinced that ammonia burn causes permanent/irrecoverable damage.
Mike
mikeyfishy
Member
It's happening again! It seems as if once this tank gets about 6 weeks old, the fish start dying. The tank has been cycled for about 3 weeks and the water has measured perfect for that time: ammonia and nitrites zero, nitrates <10, phosphates negligible. The porblem this time is not hydrogen sulfide as I don't smell any odor in the water. Something else is going on. I've had my damsels, a royal gramma, and an oscellaras in there for about a month with no problems and I just added a marine betta about 2 weeks ago. All have been fine until the last 48 hours and I've lost the royal gramma, oscellaras, and marine betta in that time! What the h-e-double hockey sticks is going on???
I've been doing regular water changes and did two small ones in the last two days after the fish died just desperately trying to save the damsels that remain. Same symptoms as before: they start "breathing" heavily and labored and within 12 hours they are gone. I have an Emperor 280 filter, SeaClone 150, and two power heads in there so I certainly think there's plenty of water exchange for a 46g tank. And, again, the inverts are all doing fine. I have a chocolate chip star, peppermint shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, and some small hermit crabs that have made it through everything. But the fish die. I'm about to give up, return the inverts to the store, and just move my freshwater tank over to this tank and give up!
Mike
I've been doing regular water changes and did two small ones in the last two days after the fish died just desperately trying to save the damsels that remain. Same symptoms as before: they start "breathing" heavily and labored and within 12 hours they are gone. I have an Emperor 280 filter, SeaClone 150, and two power heads in there so I certainly think there's plenty of water exchange for a 46g tank. And, again, the inverts are all doing fine. I have a chocolate chip star, peppermint shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, and some small hermit crabs that have made it through everything. But the fish die. I'm about to give up, return the inverts to the store, and just move my freshwater tank over to this tank and give up!
Mike
mikeyfishy
Member
Originally Posted by saltn00b
i dont know if this was mentioned before, but have you checked your tank for stray voltage? faulty equipment seems like it could be a factor here and not your practices as an aquarist.
Hmm, that's something I haven't thought of although I've stuck my arm in there a number of times and have lived to tell about it.
I could test it for stray voltage but it's odd that the fish do fine while the tank is cycling and die *after* it has cycled. Probably not stray voltage in that case. I don't change anything about my routine after the cycle either and always make sure no chemicals come near the tank. I even make sure I don't use any lotion or anything in my hands/arms so that when I have to reach in there, there isn't anything harmful added to the tank. I'm still stymied and also confused at how the inverts can do so well while the fish all die.
Mike
i dont know if this was mentioned before, but have you checked your tank for stray voltage? faulty equipment seems like it could be a factor here and not your practices as an aquarist.
Hmm, that's something I haven't thought of although I've stuck my arm in there a number of times and have lived to tell about it.
I could test it for stray voltage but it's odd that the fish do fine while the tank is cycling and die *after* it has cycled. Probably not stray voltage in that case. I don't change anything about my routine after the cycle either and always make sure no chemicals come near the tank. I even make sure I don't use any lotion or anything in my hands/arms so that when I have to reach in there, there isn't anything harmful added to the tank. I'm still stymied and also confused at how the inverts can do so well while the fish all die.
Mike
petjunkie
Active Member
My advice would be to slow the heck down on adding fish, you already had four damsels, give the tank a month before adding another fish, then a month between adding more one at a time. With your filtration which is minimal to none at best and zero live rock your tank will be unable to support very much bioload ever, much less at first. How are you testing ammonia and nitrites? Six weeks in, you should have one fish in the tank, not seven. I would take the advice of everyone and go by Sailfert test kits, all your testing is useless if they are inaccurate. Is there an lfs near you with accurate tests? I think you are adding too much too soon and causing your tank to recycle. Also set up a qt tank, if you add sick fish you will end up removing everything again to fix that.
mikeyfishy
Member
Several problems with that advice. I've had the four (tiny) damsels and the oscellaras in there for over a month. No problems. I add one marine betta and two weeks later start losing fish. The problem is not bioload, and I use an accurate liquid test kit that has worked for me for 5+ years. Hate to break it to the forum junkies but there is more than one type of test kit out there that is accurate. If the tank were recycling, I'd see an ammonia/nitrite spike and that isn't happening. I don't think the rate at which I'm adding fish is the problem as I'm keeping it close to 1/2 what the tank can hold. Four fish the size of your thumbnail and two others less than two inches long are not too much, nor would it explain why 5/6 of those fish do fine WHILE the tank is cycling only to have an unexplained problem weeks later.
Mike
Mike
jcarroll
Member
Hello! I had this EXACT same thing happen to me! I could keep inverts with absolutely no problem, but any fish I put in the tank died. They even died the exact same way that your did. First, they would show signs of labored breathing, then eventually would start doing the "dying fish dive" and soon totally died. I had no idea what was going on either, and everyone had all kinds of different ideas for me too.
What I recommend doing, and what worked for me, is let the tank sit....for a long long time with just your inverts. I let mine sit for 3 months. I know it doesn't sound like something that you want to do, but it worked for me. After 3 months, I went out and bought 2 pajama cardinals because they were only $14.99 each, and I didn't want to spend a whole lot of money when I was just testing to see whether or not they were going to survive. Well, that was about 6 months ago, and they're both still alive, plus I have a royal gramma, and just added a goby on Friday. I also have some yellow polyps and some climbing blue mushrooms.
The reason I decided to do this is because I figured that if I gave the tank enough time, it would correct itself biologically, naturally. I fed the tank every other day and I did weekly water changes, but other than that, I did nothing else except for watch my crabs, snails, and shrimp, and close my eyes so I could imagine there being fish in there! lol So, give it a shot!
What I recommend doing, and what worked for me, is let the tank sit....for a long long time with just your inverts. I let mine sit for 3 months. I know it doesn't sound like something that you want to do, but it worked for me. After 3 months, I went out and bought 2 pajama cardinals because they were only $14.99 each, and I didn't want to spend a whole lot of money when I was just testing to see whether or not they were going to survive. Well, that was about 6 months ago, and they're both still alive, plus I have a royal gramma, and just added a goby on Friday. I also have some yellow polyps and some climbing blue mushrooms.
The reason I decided to do this is because I figured that if I gave the tank enough time, it would correct itself biologically, naturally. I fed the tank every other day and I did weekly water changes, but other than that, I did nothing else except for watch my crabs, snails, and shrimp, and close my eyes so I could imagine there being fish in there! lol So, give it a shot!
mikeyfishy
Member
Originally Posted by Jcarroll
What I recommend doing, and what worked for me, is let the tank sit....for a long long time with just your inverts. I let mine sit for 3 months. I know it doesn't sound like something that you want to do, but it worked for me. After 3 months, I went out and bought 2 pajama cardinals because they were only $14.99 each, and I didn't want to spend a whole lot of money when I was just testing to see whether or not they were going to survive. Well, that was about 6 months ago, and they're both still alive, plus I have a royal gramma, and just added a goby on Friday. I also have some yellow polyps and some climbing blue mushrooms.
That sounds like good advice. I have two tiny damsels left and out of desperation to save them I got an Eheim 2217 canister filter to replace my HOT Emperor 280. I was hoping that the extra filtration might help save the little guys. It's been two days and they still look stressed but are hanging on and don't appear to be getting worse. I'm hoping the filter can filter out whatever is "bad" faster than the fish die from it. If they look like they are getting ANY worse, I'm going to let the neighbor have them as his tank seems stable and he said he could set up a QT if need be (his has been disassembled for a long time because he hasn't gotten any new fish in over a year). So that's where we stand right now.
BTW, I've been testing my water daily for the past week. Not a hint of ammonia or nitrites, nitrates are below 10, pH is 8.3, salinity is 1.023. I even used two different test kits to confirm the readings, three if you count the in-tank ammonia alarm that has worked for me in the past.
Mike
What I recommend doing, and what worked for me, is let the tank sit....for a long long time with just your inverts. I let mine sit for 3 months. I know it doesn't sound like something that you want to do, but it worked for me. After 3 months, I went out and bought 2 pajama cardinals because they were only $14.99 each, and I didn't want to spend a whole lot of money when I was just testing to see whether or not they were going to survive. Well, that was about 6 months ago, and they're both still alive, plus I have a royal gramma, and just added a goby on Friday. I also have some yellow polyps and some climbing blue mushrooms.
That sounds like good advice. I have two tiny damsels left and out of desperation to save them I got an Eheim 2217 canister filter to replace my HOT Emperor 280. I was hoping that the extra filtration might help save the little guys. It's been two days and they still look stressed but are hanging on and don't appear to be getting worse. I'm hoping the filter can filter out whatever is "bad" faster than the fish die from it. If they look like they are getting ANY worse, I'm going to let the neighbor have them as his tank seems stable and he said he could set up a QT if need be (his has been disassembled for a long time because he hasn't gotten any new fish in over a year). So that's where we stand right now.
BTW, I've been testing my water daily for the past week. Not a hint of ammonia or nitrites, nitrates are below 10, pH is 8.3, salinity is 1.023. I even used two different test kits to confirm the readings, three if you count the in-tank ammonia alarm that has worked for me in the past.
Mike