Ongoing saga: all fish die in days

[mikeyfishy]

I have a problem that has been going on for months. The short of it is, every invertebrate that I put into the tank does fine but I cannot keep fish. I have cleaner and peppermint shrimp, hermit crabs, a sea cucumber, and a chocolate chip starfish and all have been doing fine for months. Every time I introduce a fish, the fish slowly declines in health, begins "breathing" very fast, and dies in at most, a week. I've tried a foxface, several ocelleras clowns, and a heniochus at different times (introducing only one fish at a time) and they all die. I just can't figure this out.
I've tested my water and done water changes so many times I can't count them. All water parameters are perfect. Salinity 1.022, Ph 8.3, ammonia, nitrites, and phosphates all zero. Nitrates were about 20 last time I checked. I also use RO water when I do changes. I've tried just about everything I can find to improve water quality like going with the RO filter but nothing seems to change. The tank is a 46 gallon bowfront with an Emperor 280 filter and a good protein skimmer. I've tried it both with and without a 4 inch airstone (didn't make a difference) and with and without an extra power head (no difference there either).
What could be going on here? I've even let the tank sit for 4 weeks without any fish (just the inverts) in it just in case I had a touch of ich since I *did* see a few white spots on some of the fish like the heniochus. I don't think ich by itself would kill in a week though especially with only a few visible spots on the fish, so I don't know what to think/try at this point. There's some type of undetectable gremlin in that tank. The tank has been cycled now for a couple of months. I'm about to give up, as I don't want to keep killing fish.
Thanks for any advice.
Mike

 

[kayak385]

do you acclimate your fish?

 

[miamishrip]

maybe raise salinity to 1.025?

 

[memphis]

A sea cucumber toxin will kill fish but not most inverts.

 

[hot883]

Your s.g. should be 1.025-26 anyway fpr the inverts. I would suppect acclimation not done correctly. I personally would NEVER put a heniochus or a foxface in a 46.
What are your acclimation procedures? Have you bought all these fish from the same place? Barry

 

[memphis]

I found what it is called... holothurin.
there are a number of sea cucumber species whose body walls and internal organs contain a toxin known as holothurin that can rapidly kill your fish population. This is such an effective ichthyotoxin that natives in some parts of the Indo-Pacific will use the macerated bodies of certain sea cucumbers to incapacitate fish.
Might try pulling it out...

 

[ophiura]

IMO, this is not salinity related, as it is a fish and not invertebrate issue. Fish can tolerate sudden and wide swings in salinity...and 1.022 just isn't all that bad (however, not great for your inverts

).
Holothurin kills instantly for the most part, and would not, IMO, be an issue over months.
Typically these deaths are related to organic toxins of various sorts, so let's start:
Painting, cleaning agents, kitchen sponges, lotions/soap on hands, using buckets that were used with cleaning products, carpet cleaning, air fresheners...what is the tank temperature?

 

[ophiura]

Fish all from the same store, or different sources?
(as an aside, your chocolate chip star is a threat to your cucumber and that could be an issue at some time....)

 

[grumpygils]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Fish all from the same store, or different sources?
(as an aside, your chocolate chip star is a threat to your cucumber and that could be an issue at some time....)
Stray current?
Mc

 

[memphis]

Heater / Power heads leaking AC in some way into the water... seems like that would take out the inverts also.

 

[catawaba]

Acclimation issues are my first thought.

 

[mikeyfishy]

Thanks for the thoughts. Acclimation procedures are what is outlined here: using the drip method over 2-3 hours. The fish seem to do fine for 2-3 days and then slowly go downhill. I've also been through all the usual suspects. I don't use any type of cleaner on or near the tank. I never put my arm in the bucket when I'm mixing salt, and the bucket is used for fish only. I even went so far as to lock the bucket in a closet to make sure no cleaners are anywhere near it. It just doesn't make sense. The only other clue I can offer that I forgot to mention is that I have an algae problem. Even when I do water changes and clean the sand on the bottom thoroughly, spots of algae start appearing just *hours* after I clean it. The walls of the tank collect algae pretty quickly too. I've checked for phosphates and I have zero, so I know it isn't phosphates causing the algae. The water does smell with just a hint of sulphur too. I can't smell it unless I put my nose over the water but I do smell a hint of rotten egg odor. Does that help with any clues?
Thanks,
Mike

 

[michaeltx]

do make your own RO or buy it from a store?
if you make your own when was the last time the filters were changed.
It doesnt make sense on why only the fish are being effected though. does your tap water have a smell to it. and is there a chance someone has put somehting in the tank.
What additives are you adding if any and how old are the bottles>?
Mike

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by mikeyfishy
The water does smell with just a hint of sulphur too. I can't smell it unless I put my nose over the water but I do smell a hint of rotten egg odor. Does that help with any clues?
Hydrogen Sulfide issue with the substrate?

 

[fbm]

Maybe not enough O2? Do inverts need less than fish? I would think inverts could live with lower oxygen levels. But you Ph is fine, just a thought.

 

[mikeyfishy]

Forgot to mention: temp is set at 76F. I've tried fish from two local fish stores, both known to have good quality/healthy fish. Some have been at the store for 2+ weeks only to come home with me and die in ~5 days. Strange. I'm on public water and the water quality in my area is excellent. I do my own RO water and the filter is new: only run about 20 gallons through it so far and I follow the procedures and run it through very slow. I can't say the RO water helped as I had the same problem when I used it straight from the tap only dechlorinating it. I have 40 pounds of "Nature's Ocean" live sand as my substrate and a few pieces of live rock that have been in the tank for about 2 months.
Mike

 

[barchtruong]

Everyone seems to leave out 1 important question,
And did you feed the fishes

jk, I'm just being silly.
I tell you what,
First of, deep vacuum your substrate weekly is a NO NO
and then, it's wrong when algae growin immediately a day after you change the water and after being cycled for that many months.
and then, lets stop using your own RO water for about 1 month. Go to your local lfs, the one you trust them and get DI from them.
And one more thought, I just think that your tank don't have a good biological balance. Did you clean the sponge inside the filter everytime you do water change right! That's another NO NO if you don't have enough liverock.
Cuz when you do that, you mess up the water. The foams are only be rinsed alternately and not weekly. Best is to go and add more LR in the tank.

 

[hatessushi]

What is the temp of the water at the LFS or in the bag you use. Lowering or raising the temp to fast can cause problems and possible lower the fishes immunity. What do you feed the fish? No one has asked that question yet.
Also you stated that the fish are breathing hard after you introduce them which means there is something wrong in the water. Are you adding any additives other then new saltwater at change time? What are you checking the salinity of the water with. what test kits are you using and how old are they?

 

[catawaba]

LR/LS not fully cured or contaminated...each sand cleaning is reactivating it.
What skimmate do you get from your protein skimmer?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by barchtruong
Everyone seems to leave out 1 important question,
And did you feed the fishes

jk, I'm just being silly.
I tell you what,
First of, deep vacuum your substrate weekly is a NO NO
and then, it's wrong when algae growin immediately a day after you change the water and after being cycled for that many months.
and then, lets stop using your own RO water for about 1 month. Go to your local lfs, the one you trust them and get DI from them.
And one more thought, I just think that your tank don't have a good biological balance. Did you clean the sponge inside the filter everytime you do water change right! That's another NO NO if you don't have enough liverock.
Cuz when you do that, you mess up the water. The foams are only be rinsed alternately and not weekly. Best is to go and add more LR in the tank.
You shouldn't vaccuum sand.
All "cycle" related questions are answered by whether or not he's seeing a spike in ammonia. Since the inverts are fine and the fish die it's not a cycling issue. Also, I can't imagine acclimation issues not killing inverts but killing fish.
Oxygen exchange is a possibility, but with a functioning skimmer this is less of an issue.
I'm with Ophiura; This seems like a toxin of some sort.