ophiura: Serpent star infection?

[machiavelli]

My serpent star sort of fell to pieces. When we first bought it, it had a small area or two of pale white discoloration which we didnt think much of. Now, almost two months later a large tear appears (shown here http://www-personal.umich.edu/~skotz...%20(Large).JPG)
I figured it was a small injury and would repair itself, but when I cam back after the weekend, it had lost two of its legs and about half of its central disk was gone, revealing its skeleton. It still made very small movements, so I left it in. Today I find that all the legs are detached. The greater half of the disk is probably attached to a leg hiding in the rocks. The lfs said it was caused by an infection and that an idodine dip would have helped. Does this sound likely?
Had the serpent star for about two months. Was careful during acclimation (drip for several hours) and have had no signifigant water chemistry changes.
Any ideas? Thanks in advance

 

[ryebread]

It sounds like acclimation shock to me.

 

[machiavelli]

Fixed it as you were writing your post.
Furthermore, I'm not sure how it could have been acclimation shock. I drip acclimated for several hours, not to mention that this all happened two months later...

 

[ophiura]

Can you give me specifics about your set up, especially age of tank, inhabitants, water parameters (esp specific gravity, alk, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)?
Thing is, brittlestars aren't really known for getting infections. They have a fantastic array of symbiotic bacteria that help prevent major infections...at least this is what we think.
From: Isolation and screening of brittlestar-associated bacteria for antibacterial activity. Strahl ED, Dobson WE, Lundie LL
Curr Microbiol 2002 Jun 44:450-9
Our results suggest that some of the bacteria associated with A. gracillima may provide the animal with chemical defenses against adverse bacterial infection.
Anyway, most wounds interpreted as 'infections' are actually the result of osmotic stress...which can be sudden (due to poor acclimation) or chronic (due to parameters outside the ideal range for the animal). In chronic osmotic stress, the animal kind of 'shuts down,' and slowly starts to waste away.
However, there is a lot we simply don't know about these animals, so anything remains a possibility. Regardless, I am not sure that anything other than pristine water quality will really help. I don't see how anything that requires dipping an animal that is prone to osmotic stress into some solution really will help. But hey, might be worth a go if the animal really does not seem to be improving. Then I cross into experimental mode.

 

[machiavelli]

Lessee, tank params:
pH: 8.3
Am: 0
Ni: 0
Na: ~5
Alk: 3 meq/L
Ca: 400
Salinity: 1.0235
Temp: 84, 86 on hot days
O2: Havent tested lately but it was ok last I checked.
Only thing that seems concerns me is the bad temp, since we have been having alot of hot and humid days.
I took a look at one of the remaining legs and its just falling apart even more. Its very odd. Does the picture give any indications as to the cause? I feel so horribly for the poor thing. Its just breaking into tiny pieces.

 

[ophiura]

I am a touch worried about that temperature as well...are you sure you don't have any thing that is becoming variable with these temp fluctuations, eg pH? Have you tried running any fans over the surface of the water?

 

[ophiura]

Oh, and how big is the tank? How long has it been established?

 

[machiavelli]

Tank is a 55 long and has been established for about 4-5 months.
pH remains relatively constant. I'm in the planning stages of a sump which should help alleviate the temperature, in the meanwhile I was planning on raising the lighting canopy a bit, although we dont have any fans around the house.
So other than osmotic shock, what else would cause a serpent to break into pieces?
Oh, one more thing. Our serpent star by no means shut down, in fact it was very forward. From the first days of having it, it would come running out of the rocks (lights on and everything) and run around waving its arms around for food. Been doing this up until very recently when it fell apart.

 

[ophiura]

Basically, nothing that I know of. I suppose infection or parastism is a possibility, but I am uncomfortable with the temperature situation in the tank. Small computer fans or even clip on fans will help if you direct them at the surface of the water. I am concerned about the amount of evaporation in the tank, and potential salinity changes from that, etc. But it seems to me that temperature is creeping up very very high all considering, and that is not helping at all.
In nearly all cases, these injuries can be attributed to one of three things: predation (and this is clearly not that), a feeding injury (again, this is definitely not that) and osmotic/physiological stress (which seems the most likely cause here). We just simply don't study much about brittlestar diseases, but then, they just don't seem all that common. These are animals that can develop huge wholes in the disk, for a variety of reasons, and close them up in a few days showing no ill effects at all. There is the possibility that this animal is simply not healthy, and there is little that I know of that can be done to stop this (except going into experimental things like cutting off the disintegrating parts). So, you can try this (using a very sharp knife), but otherwise, I can't suggest anything for it except to improve the parameters in the tank. IMO, the most likely cause is physiological stress.

 

[leigh]

Hey...I hope these last few cooler days we've had have helped cool your tank down. If you want (i'm not sure if it'd help or not--after all it'd involve yet another acclimation for your star) but if you think it'd help I can put him in my reef for a while to see if he heals up (i'm also in ann arbor up by north campus)? I have central air so the temp in my tank is never above 80. In regards to acclimation shock--even if you acclimated him very slowly, it's hard (impossible) to know how he was acclimated on every step enroute to you. Some distributer probably grabbed him and tossed him in a bucket at some point Btw, which lfs was it that suggested the iodine dip?

 

[machiavelli]

I cant thank you enough for your offer Leigh, but unfortunetaly he is in about 7 small pieces by now He just gets progressively smaller.
It probably wont surprise you to know it was Fish Doctors which recommended iodine dip. Was told this by one of the younger employees (I think I went to High School with him) So I took it with a grain of salt.

 

[leigh]

Hmm...yeah, though they're one of the better places around. I forget the guys name but they have a few guys there who are quite knowledgable--(and more than a few idiots)...I'm particularly thinking of a short brown haired guy with facial hair (not the guy with chin length hair). The guy with short hair has often given me some quite good advice. Normally the younger guys there have actually been pretty good to me--either having good advice or admitting if they don't know. It's some of the older ones I've had problems with...(of course older is relative in this hobby--i think the oldest guy i've ever seen there is maybe pushing 30. makes ya feel old!) Anyhow, good luck with it. Sorry bout the star And if you're ever on North Campus lemme know, there are quite a few of us reefers up here and always looking for a frag trade .

 

[machiavelli]

Yeah, between Fish Doctors and Coral Reef, I'm pretty well off.
Unfotunetly I havent any frags at all. I've only just added a thumbnail sized piece of Pulsing Xenia to see how it will do (crosses fingers)
As far as the star fish goes, it seems that the legs themselves are breaking up into even smaller pieces. Very odd.
I've raised the canopy with soem old paperback books and turned on the ceiling fan to circulate some air. Going to pick up a clip on fan and accelerate my plans for the sump.
Thank you all for the help