Orange Spotted Filefish. Anyone own one?
- Thread starter btldreef
- Start date
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3222067
I really wondered how far you would take it Joe.
that my trusted friend is why you are the king of visuals, lucky guy that mike
http:///forum/post/3222067
I really wondered how far you would take it Joe.
btldreef
Moderator
Feeding Log:
(All food is San Francisco Bay Brand unless otherwise noted. All food is soaked in Kent's Garlic Extreme and Boyd's VitaChem)
Tuesday PM: Brine Shrimp and PE Mysis
Wednesday AM: Brine Shrimp, Emerald Entree, Reef Nutrition ArctiPods
Wednesday PM: Cyclops Shrimp (inhaled them!), ArctiPods and Emerald Entree
(All food is San Francisco Bay Brand unless otherwise noted. All food is soaked in Kent's Garlic Extreme and Boyd's VitaChem)
Tuesday PM: Brine Shrimp and PE Mysis
Wednesday AM: Brine Shrimp, Emerald Entree, Reef Nutrition ArctiPods
Wednesday PM: Cyclops Shrimp (inhaled them!), ArctiPods and Emerald Entree
mwp
New Member
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221790
That article is what really made me even more interested in these fish for some reason.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221791
I didn't even put the two together, you wrote that article, didn't you? Great write up
Yes, all my work, and thanks! If you hadn't read it thoroughly, I'd be strongly telling you to go get a copy. The thing is, when I wrote that article, there was a LOT of concern over publicizing this species - you might say that after 20-30 years of people working tirelessly to get the word out that it's "doomed to die", well, you at least ruffle a few feathers, but there is legitimate concerns when someone asks the question, "What if it's a fluke?" So, I was REALLY careful to fight for ever word in that article. I certainly don't know all the secrets of the Harlequin Filefish, but in sharing the successes, I didn't fully realize that indeed, others (and not always those truly prepared) would perhaps only take up part of what I had written. Everything I wrote stemmed from lessons that were learned the hard way.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221790
I've been waiting for a LFS to have them for the longest time, and these are the first I've seen that are healthy and eating prepared foods. The LFS has had them for well over a month now and they still look good, so I'm taking the risk.
Well, as you wrote, they're eating and they've been at the shop a month...arguably the hard part, the risk, may have already passed.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221790
I honestly feel bad separating it from the other one and really think I may still go back and get the other one.
As you saw in some of the pictures, I found that females will sometimes co-exist relatively peacefully.
bcode_postedby">
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
Ya, they only get about 4".
I've personally kept 20 specimens for various amounts of time, and have seen many more firsthand (around 30-40 now). Have never seen one over 3" in length
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
How big is your tank?
Did I miss the answer to this question? I too am curious what size tank you'll be putting them in.
http:///forum/post/3221790
That article is what really made me even more interested in these fish for some reason.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221791
I didn't even put the two together, you wrote that article, didn't you? Great write up
Yes, all my work, and thanks! If you hadn't read it thoroughly, I'd be strongly telling you to go get a copy. The thing is, when I wrote that article, there was a LOT of concern over publicizing this species - you might say that after 20-30 years of people working tirelessly to get the word out that it's "doomed to die", well, you at least ruffle a few feathers, but there is legitimate concerns when someone asks the question, "What if it's a fluke?" So, I was REALLY careful to fight for ever word in that article. I certainly don't know all the secrets of the Harlequin Filefish, but in sharing the successes, I didn't fully realize that indeed, others (and not always those truly prepared) would perhaps only take up part of what I had written. Everything I wrote stemmed from lessons that were learned the hard way.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221790
I've been waiting for a LFS to have them for the longest time, and these are the first I've seen that are healthy and eating prepared foods. The LFS has had them for well over a month now and they still look good, so I'm taking the risk.
Well, as you wrote, they're eating and they've been at the shop a month...arguably the hard part, the risk, may have already passed.
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3221790
I honestly feel bad separating it from the other one and really think I may still go back and get the other one.
As you saw in some of the pictures, I found that females will sometimes co-exist relatively peacefully.
bcode_postedby">
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
Ya, they only get about 4".
I've personally kept 20 specimens for various amounts of time, and have seen many more firsthand (around 30-40 now). Have never seen one over 3" in length
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
How big is your tank?
Did I miss the answer to this question? I too am curious what size tank you'll be putting them in.
mwp
New Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
It's very rare to come across one that is already taking a variety of prepared foods... honestly, I would get them both. You may never have another opportunity.
I'd push you in that direction as well, especially if the other was a male. That said, technically, I'd say be prepared to have a dedicated tank for each fish in the event that they simply refuse to cohabitate.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
You guys are a lot calmer over here in regards to such things. But there is indeed a lot of controversy in keeping these guys and a lot of people will come down hard.
20-30 years of dogma has that kind of affect on people.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
But these guys are over that hump and already eating 3 varieties of frozen food and look good (pics are mandatory BTW) so I have no problem in saying someone such as yourself, to give them a whirl...
+1 for pics!!!
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
If anyone else sees these guys in the store that are NOT taking prepared, pass them by. I prepared for a long time for them. I had colonies of SPS, frag plugs I switched in and out, water changes daily..... it wasn't easy.
I second that sentiment fully. They aren't easy. They can test your patience and skill. They are SENSITIVE fish, especially if water quality is less than pristine (which surprise surprise is much more likely to happen in your 10 gallon QT tank).
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
I don't know if I consider them expert level only.... what is an expert? That label I reserve for only a few in a certain area. Definitely I think one should be advanced in the hobby and have skills in care delivery, observation, education and resources.
Well, in truth, there's something to be said that "expert" is a relative term. I.e. arguably I would be the defacto "expert" breeding this species because I'm the only one to have done it so far But I'm the first to say that even I am no expert.
That said, the term "expert only" is commonly used and we all know what it means...the fish is one step away from being "not suited for captivity at all" or "leave in the ocean". To put some numbers against my use of the term "expert only" - at the time I had written the article for CORAL, every single person I knew who had successfully kept Harlequin Filefish had at least a decade of marine aquarium experience under their belts. That may not be the case going forward, but for the 10 or so individuals I could go back to, all were in the 10+ range. Knowing that my instincts played a key role in crackin' this nut told me that a beginner does not have the same chances at pulling it off. They could follow every protocol I lay out to a T, and they'd still be far more likely to fail because they'd not notice a change in coloration, behavior, gill rates, food preferences - any number of tiny changes that would instantly draw the attention of a more experienced aquarist. And so...that's what I mean when I say "expert only", and I always qualify that by saying I'm referring to the wild caught fish. Based on my limited experiences with the first juveniles I raised, they will be far more suited to captive life and far easier to keep. Of course, no one has any CB Harlequin Filefish at the moment...so we're all stuck with WC for the time being.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
Look for some stuff written by "Umm, fish?" as well. Very nice approachable guy.
I'm really pushing Andy to be the second person to rear some up. He's been working really hard at it. Here's a link to a recent "year in review" writeup he did - http://www.ummfish.com/harlequin_files_12-31-09.php
http:///forum/post/3221825
It's very rare to come across one that is already taking a variety of prepared foods... honestly, I would get them both. You may never have another opportunity.
I'd push you in that direction as well, especially if the other was a male. That said, technically, I'd say be prepared to have a dedicated tank for each fish in the event that they simply refuse to cohabitate.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
You guys are a lot calmer over here in regards to such things. But there is indeed a lot of controversy in keeping these guys and a lot of people will come down hard.
20-30 years of dogma has that kind of affect on people.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
But these guys are over that hump and already eating 3 varieties of frozen food and look good (pics are mandatory BTW) so I have no problem in saying someone such as yourself, to give them a whirl...
+1 for pics!!!
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
If anyone else sees these guys in the store that are NOT taking prepared, pass them by. I prepared for a long time for them. I had colonies of SPS, frag plugs I switched in and out, water changes daily..... it wasn't easy.
I second that sentiment fully. They aren't easy. They can test your patience and skill. They are SENSITIVE fish, especially if water quality is less than pristine (which surprise surprise is much more likely to happen in your 10 gallon QT tank).
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
I don't know if I consider them expert level only.... what is an expert? That label I reserve for only a few in a certain area. Definitely I think one should be advanced in the hobby and have skills in care delivery, observation, education and resources.
Well, in truth, there's something to be said that "expert" is a relative term. I.e. arguably I would be the defacto "expert" breeding this species because I'm the only one to have done it so far
But I'm the first to say that even I am no expert.That said, the term "expert only" is commonly used and we all know what it means...the fish is one step away from being "not suited for captivity at all" or "leave in the ocean". To put some numbers against my use of the term "expert only" - at the time I had written the article for CORAL, every single person I knew who had successfully kept Harlequin Filefish had at least a decade of marine aquarium experience under their belts. That may not be the case going forward, but for the 10 or so individuals I could go back to, all were in the 10+ range. Knowing that my instincts played a key role in crackin' this nut told me that a beginner does not have the same chances at pulling it off. They could follow every protocol I lay out to a T, and they'd still be far more likely to fail because they'd not notice a change in coloration, behavior, gill rates, food preferences - any number of tiny changes that would instantly draw the attention of a more experienced aquarist. And so...that's what I mean when I say "expert only", and I always qualify that by saying I'm referring to the wild caught fish. Based on my limited experiences with the first juveniles I raised, they will be far more suited to captive life and far easier to keep. Of course, no one has any CB Harlequin Filefish at the moment...so we're all stuck with WC for the time being.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221825
Look for some stuff written by "Umm, fish?" as well. Very nice approachable guy.
I'm really pushing Andy to be the second person to rear some up. He's been working really hard at it. Here's a link to a recent "year in review" writeup he did - http://www.ummfish.com/harlequin_files_12-31-09.php
mwp
New Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221910
This is one of the reasons it's so hard to find info. I was hesitant about starting threads on other forums. Everyone who is afraid is another source of data lost.
You should see the flamefest that ensued when I first posted about these on Nano-Reef
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221910
I get their point, and can appreciate their passion, but we are at the beginning stages of untangling some of the mysteries with these guys. People have to stop thinking since they have kept them successfully, they should be the only ones privileged to try.
I'm curious who these "priviledged people" are - I don't know anyone out there who's saying "do as I say, not as I do"...'cept maybe me. But IF I were to ever make such a statement, a "you shouldn't be keeping this fish even though I do" I would certainly bring evidence and experience to back up such a statement. I DO think it would be irresponsible for anyone with only a couple years experience to try keeping WC Harlequin Filefish, ESPECIALLY if they aren't lucky, and get the far more typical fish that isn't eating prepared foods of any kind at the time of purchase and may have one foot in the grave by the time it makes it to you home. Afterall, my current success rate is 70% training onto prepared foods. That's 14 out of 20. I did lose 6 fish along the way. The difference is, I know precisely why 5 out of the 6 fish died (and yes, I do even count a JUMPER in my failure rate).
Truthfully, there are "easier" fish. I know someone will jump all over this one - try to keep a Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) first. I say this, because here too is a difficult fish to keep, but in truth, I think I trained all but one onto prepared foods (and the one that didn't make it didn't last more than like a week IIRC...would have to check my records). Yes, definitely, without a doubt, a WC Mandarin is a much easier fish to bring into captivity than a WC Harlequin Filefish. I say that from experience having trained and spawned both. And we all know the general stance on Mandarins.
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3221910
So, if someone is interested in these guys fresh out of the gate, I really encourage you to evaluate your skill level. You should not have to come on here and ask questions like
"How do I do a freshwater dip?"
"My pH is 7.8 in the morning, how do I bring it up?"
"Help, high nitrates!"
and certainly not...... "Is my tank cycled?"
If you've never dealt with these issues before, you need more experience.
If you think you have the tank environment "under control", also evaluate the amount of time you have available and your level of patience. If you don't have patience... skip these fish. If you don't have the time for daily siphoning, food prep, water quality monitoring, water changes and stretches of quiet observation... skip these fish....
...Make sure you can find, and can afford to obtain, all the equipment needed for converting. You WILL have to provide them with live SPS if you are honestly giving it your best shot. Can you do that for months on end? No?... skip these fish.
You also need to have a back up plan. What if they never convert? That fish needs to go into a large SPS tank. Locate someone who will take them BEFORE you buy. If they start to get thin, you need to give them up.
Cranberry - you nailed it, but I'll argue only your last point - the "locate someone who will take them before you buy / if they get thin, you need to give them up". Honestly, that's passing the buck and giving someone an easy out. A potential Harlequin keeper isn't going to be taking anything short of success for an answer, and will stop at nothing to make sure that happens. If that means $80 a week in maricultured corals for food, that's what it means. Don't be expecting the guy across town with a 150 gallon SPS tank to allow your filefish to graze his prized corals....what does HE do once you've passed your fish off and he realizes that accepting it was a mistake?!
mwp
New Member
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3222051
Okay, so I'm fairly certain that the so-called "mated pair" are both females.
So I think I have a female. I don't want two females, so the question is, will the dominant one become male or the other way, you get the point....
At this time, the unofficial answer is no, they are not hermaphrodites, at least not as far as anyone knows. That said, I had a female that got along with others for a long time, then one day, no longer...the male she was with became vicious towards her. I pulled her into QT, she recovered, and I put her with a different male, and same response. Ultimately she did not recover the second time around. The reality is that these males were reacting the way they normally react to fish that are outwardly male.
When we moved our tanks from Chicago to Duluth MN (talk about a nightmare) we ultimately lost most of our more sensitive fish...one of which was the spawning male from my productive pair. The female lived alone for a month or two, and then I found a male, trained him and introduced him. They were very happy for about a day, and ever since, the new male is anything but kind. The question is - did the lone female start turning into a male, or is this simply a case of two individual personalities not meshing. We may know if I swap out the male for the other one sitting in QT right now
Pile onto that the photos taken by one aquarist that shows a fish that appears to be clearly female, yet something like 8 months later, is undeniably a male. So is this indicative of a --- change, or could it be that the "female" coloration is the same as that of a juvenile?
I'm guessing we'll have all of these questions answered once I rear a sizable batch of babies, and provided I have some spawning broodstock, I should get that accomplished in 2010. Then we'll know...if 50% of the babies show male coloration at 6-12 months, it will be very easy to say these are gonochorists. If I pull out and make 6 or 12 pairs out of juveniles and they all ultimately turn out to be male/female pairs, there is certainly hermaphrodism involved!
http:///forum/post/3222051
Okay, so I'm fairly certain that the so-called "mated pair" are both females.
So I think I have a female. I don't want two females, so the question is, will the dominant one become male or the other way, you get the point....
At this time, the unofficial answer is no, they are not hermaphrodites, at least not as far as anyone knows. That said, I had a female that got along with others for a long time, then one day, no longer...the male she was with became vicious towards her. I pulled her into QT, she recovered, and I put her with a different male, and same response. Ultimately she did not recover the second time around. The reality is that these males were reacting the way they normally react to fish that are outwardly male.
When we moved our tanks from Chicago to Duluth MN (talk about a nightmare) we ultimately lost most of our more sensitive fish...one of which was the spawning male from my productive pair. The female lived alone for a month or two, and then I found a male, trained him and introduced him. They were very happy for about a day, and ever since, the new male is anything but kind. The question is - did the lone female start turning into a male, or is this simply a case of two individual personalities not meshing. We may know if I swap out the male for the other one sitting in QT right now
Pile onto that the photos taken by one aquarist that shows a fish that appears to be clearly female, yet something like 8 months later, is undeniably a male. So is this indicative of a --- change, or could it be that the "female" coloration is the same as that of a juvenile?
I'm guessing we'll have all of these questions answered once I rear a sizable batch of babies, and provided I have some spawning broodstock, I should get that accomplished in 2010. Then we'll know...if 50% of the babies show male coloration at 6-12 months, it will be very easy to say these are gonochorists. If I pull out and make 6 or 12 pairs out of juveniles and they all ultimately turn out to be male/female pairs, there is certainly hermaphrodism involved!
btldreef
Moderator
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3222532
How are you feeding out your PE mysis? I get a pair of scissors and just chop at the water for a bit before feeding out to make it the right size.
I'm envious yours is eating Cyclops, mine won't touch them or anything that size.
I defrost some and put it through the food processor for about 10 seconds. Had to do this even before the filefish for my yasha goby, she won't eat a full PE Mysis.
This morning the filefish picked at a full Mysis, it did eat the whole shrimp, but not in one gulp. It seems to prefer to pick at a whole Mysis than eat the chopped up ones. Definitely prefers Mysis to anything else.
http:///forum/post/3222532
How are you feeding out your PE mysis? I get a pair of scissors and just chop at the water for a bit before feeding out to make it the right size.
I'm envious yours is eating Cyclops, mine won't touch them or anything that size.
I defrost some and put it through the food processor for about 10 seconds. Had to do this even before the filefish for my yasha goby, she won't eat a full PE Mysis.
This morning the filefish picked at a full Mysis, it did eat the whole shrimp, but not in one gulp. It seems to prefer to pick at a whole Mysis than eat the chopped up ones. Definitely prefers Mysis to anything else.
cranberry
Active Member
Ya, mine will attack a piece over and over. Eventually she pulverizes it enough so she can suck it in.
Have you seen those little Mini-Me garlic grater. I take a whole chuck of frozen food and shave it. If you press pretty hard you get some nice edible flesh chucks. I do this with "prepared Frozen Fish Food" as well as chunks of frozen flesh from the fish market.
Have you seen those little Mini-Me garlic grater. I take a whole chuck of frozen food and shave it. If you press pretty hard you get some nice edible flesh chucks. I do this with "prepared Frozen Fish Food" as well as chunks of frozen flesh from the fish market.
btldreef
Moderator
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3222612
Ya, mine will attack a piece over and over. Eventually she pulverizes it enough so she can suck it in.
Have you seen those little Mini-Me garlic grater. I take a whole chuck of frozen food and shave it. If you press pretty hard you get some nice edible flesh chucks. I do this with "prepared Frozen Fish Food" as well as chunks of frozen flesh from the fish market.
I wonder if that's the garlic thing my husband just got. I'm not the cook, LOL. I'm only allowed to make the fish and dog food.
http:///forum/post/3222612
Ya, mine will attack a piece over and over. Eventually she pulverizes it enough so she can suck it in.
Have you seen those little Mini-Me garlic grater. I take a whole chuck of frozen food and shave it. If you press pretty hard you get some nice edible flesh chucks. I do this with "prepared Frozen Fish Food" as well as chunks of frozen flesh from the fish market.
I wonder if that's the garlic thing my husband just got. I'm not the cook, LOL. I'm only allowed to make the fish and dog food.
runn3rb3an
Active Member
I just went to the lfs and the other little guy was dead! I was so upset I wanted him so bad! Ugh that's no fun. Poor little filefish
btldreef
Moderator
Originally Posted by runn3rb3an
http:///forum/post/3222714
I just went to the lfs and the other little guy was dead! I was so upset I wanted him so bad! Ugh that's no fun. Poor little filefish
Now I feel guilty! I took his friend away.
http:///forum/post/3222714
I just went to the lfs and the other little guy was dead! I was so upset I wanted him so bad! Ugh that's no fun. Poor little filefish
Now I feel guilty! I took his friend away.
runn3rb3an
Active Member
the guy told me he died of loneliness.....
jk
jk
btldreef
Moderator
Originally Posted by runn3rb3an
http:///forum/post/3222797
the guy told me he died of loneliness.....
jk
http:///forum/post/3222797
the guy told me he died of loneliness.....
jk
btldreef
Moderator
Camera sucks, you should all know the routine by now. The blue is more vibrant, but my actinic ballast is broken in this tank right now so the colors don't pop as much, especially when you're taking a picture. This fish was so hard to capture on film, but here ya go:
The Yasha Goby felt up to taking pictures tonight:
Friends:
And the Yasha (so glad she's popping up again):
The Yasha Goby felt up to taking pictures tonight:
Friends:
And the Yasha (so glad she's popping up again):