Overflow Question

1guydude

Well-Known Member
So ive been thinking a lot lately about sumps and overflows. The more i read or here about it, the more i here of horrible floods~!
My question is how does one stop the flood if u lose siphon on ur overflow box or homemade DIY overflow? Obviously if the power outage hits than ur return pump will stop too but if u lose siphon are u just pretty much hosed?
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3391933
So ive been thinking a lot lately about sumps and overflows. The more i read or here about it, the more i here of horrible floods~!
My question is how does one stop the flood if u lose siphon on ur overflow box or homemade DIY overflow? Obviously if the power outage hits than ur return pump will stop too but if u lose siphon are u just pretty much hosed?
I have been told that a drilled tank is best...the water has no choice but to drain. However my tank wasn't reef ready and I am not into drilling a glass tank nor asking anyone else to..I'm too afraid.
I use the CPR overflow with a lifter pump. I plug all the pumps into a single power strip this creates an emergency cut off button, I feel more secure that way. All pumps shut down at the exact same time, no matter what. I have 12 GFCI outlets on my fish tank wall and one can trip while the others don't so this method works good for me.
The lifter pump on the CPR has failed a few times (got clogged up) however the water still drained and didn't overflow my tank. I have never had a days grief with the system Acrylic51, 2Quills and Al&Burke set up. I like the sump so much I copied their design for my seahorse tank. I don't think I will ever go back to my canister filters again for anything but media and extra flow.
So if you can go to a sump, I say do it.
 

1guydude

Well-Known Member
most of my tanks are full of water and sealife so i dont think ill go drilling them! Im just saying wat if the drain part stops draining for some reason and the return pump keeps pumping the water back to the DT!!!! Youd end up with a mess of water on the floor. Is there anyway to make sure or have a fail safe or something? I wanna do this sump deal for my tanks but i just dont want a FLOOD
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3391983
most of my tanks are full of water and sealife so i dont think ill go drilling them! Im just saying wat if the drain part stops draining for some reason and the return pump keeps pumping the water back to the DT!!!! Youd end up with a mess of water on the floor. Is there anyway to make sure or have a fail safe or something? I wanna do this sump deal for my tanks but i just dont want a FLOOD
My CPR overflow comes with a plastic net that sits in the drain section to stop anything like a snail or something going down and clogging the hose. I had a fully established 90g reef when I decided to go with a sump system and have had no problems. It has NEVER flooded, even when the lifter pump decisided to stop working for 3 days before I realized it. The water came to the rim but never flooded over.
What ifs in life are a dime a dozen..
What if someone bumps into your tank and cracks it...?
What if there is a storm and the power goes off for a month..?
What if your kid dumps bleach/soap/all the fishfood into the tank..?
What if your skimmer goes nuts and floods out all the seawater and the ATO pumps all fresh RO back into the tank...?
What if the canister hose comes loose while you at work and drains the tank dry...?
There are no absolutes in life, all of the above has happened to someone, somewhere, somehow....we do our best to prepare and that's all we can do.
 

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3391983
most of my tanks are full of water and sealife so i dont think ill go drilling them! Im just saying wat if the drain part stops draining for some reason and the return pump keeps pumping the water back to the DT!!!! Youd end up with a mess of water on the floor. Is there anyway to make sure or have a fail safe or something? I wanna do this sump deal for my tanks but i just dont want a FLOOD
Ya just gotta plan it out in advance. If your sump is too small OR runs at too high a level to accept ALL water from the main UNTIL flow stops, then you'll have messes. But ya have to figure in advance, when the power dies - what's gonna be the lowest level in the DT and know how much it's gonna loose, AND plan it out so the sump has the room to accept it.
A good way to start is know how many gallons each vertical inch of your tank holds - so for example, your 75g is 48"w by 17.5 w, so 48x17.5 = 840... 840/231 = 3.64 (231 is cubic inches per gal) This means for every vertical inch of your tank, it holds 3.64 gallons. So if your sump/overflow design requires say 3 inches of water to siphon out of the main until the siphon breaks, then you better have at least 11 gallons of space in your sump. Which means if your using your 20L tank as a sump, it better be less than 1/2 full when the system is running normal, or else get a mop if the power dies. I ran my 20L like 1/2 full when it was a sump/fuge for my 75g. It worked great, but my overflow design only dropped the DT level 1" before the siphon quit - so there was ~5 gallons "spare" space in the sump - which is a MUST too - always allow some fudge factor, and error in the cause of "more space".
And drilling tanks is the best way, but there are other ways too - lifter pumps when designed right will do the same job.
 

1guydude

Well-Known Member
k well thxs all! I was looking at the Toms lifter/doser pump?!?!
I guess i could also make a lil makeshift rack for the return pump to sit on so it would only pump out the water its sitting in as well? Is that a good idea? hmmm sump sump sump ahhhh its killin me!!!
1st sump is quite a jump...
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392114
k well thxs all! I was looking at the Toms lifter/doser pump?!?!
I guess i could also make a lil makeshift rack for the return pump to sit on so it would only pump out the water its sitting in as well? Is that a good idea? hmmm sump sump sump ahhhh its killin me!!!
1st sump is quite a jump...
LOL..There is a thread called Flowers sump/fuge build...my first sump.
Tangs rule made it sound like you need to be a math major to do a sump. I would be intimidated.
My sump is filled half way. Actually 1 inch below the baffle in the center. When the pumps are stopped..... the water back siphons to the little hole I made in the return hose at the top in the display tank. As soon (to the second) the air is sucked into that hole the water stops back siphoning, at that point my sump has filled to about 1/3 full with about 6 inches to spare. No more water goes in because the whole system has stopped. When I turn the pumps back on...the return pump sends water from the sump and it begins to fill the display tank...as soon as the level of water matches the overflow in the top tank, the extra water goes in there back to the sump and the system is restored just as it was before the power went off.
Now everytime the power is off I know it won't go any higher in the sump then that 6 inches from the top every time without fail. Please believe me...LOL...If I say it's easy...it's easy.
 

scott t

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392114
k well thxs all! I was looking at the Toms lifter/doser pump?!?!
I guess i could also make a lil makeshift rack for the return pump to sit on so it would only pump out the water its sitting in as well? Is that a good idea? hmmm sump sump sump ahhhh its killin me!!!
1st sump is quite a jump...
If you go look at my Thread there is a Sketch that Corey did for me that i followed and it is really simple for a 20g long tank. that is what I built and it cost me a whole $50 to make... Its not that had and I would not do it any other way than with a sump.....
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Agree!!!!! Sump all the way.....99.9% of the time when there is a flood involved it's usually user error......If properly setup as many have suggested you take the headache away. Granted unforseen things can always happen, but again usually we cause our own problems.
The mathematical way that Flower commented about is way to technical....The simple way to do it is get everything setup and shut the system down manual and watch the sump level rise....If it gets to high just refire the pumps and you know that you have to adjust the water level in the sump. The sump should be able to handle back flow from the DT. Again the amount of back flow from the tank can be easily adjusted and regulated. Again the setup is as simple as firing the system, shutting it down and watching the water level till the back siphon stops. Once you have refire the pump and mark your sump water level accordingly; so you know where your water level should be in the sump. Flower you could probably explain it easier than I!!!!!
 

scott t

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392166
Agree!!!!! Sump all the way.....99.9% of the time when there is a flood involved it's usually user error......If properly setup as many have suggested you take the headache away. Granted unforseen things can always happen, but again usually we cause our own problems.
The mathematical way that Flower commented about is way to technical....The simple way to do it is get everything setup and shut the system down manual and watch the sump level rise....If it gets to high just refire the pumps and you know that you have to adjust the water level in the sump. The sump should be able to handle back flow from the DT. Again the amount of back flow from the tank can be easily adjusted and regulated. Again the setup is as simple as firing the system, shutting it down and watching the water level till the back siphon stops. Once you have refire the pump and mark your sump water level accordingly; so you know where your water level should be in the sump. Flower you could probably explain it easier than I!!!!!
Shawn and Corey are the sump Gurus so listen to what they have to say they sure know what they are talking about, and always more than willing to help with questions they sure helped me a lot.. Long time no talk Shawn how things are well with you!!!!
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Very good Scott.....I'm usually here lurking, just not a lot of free time.....Trying to get motivated to get busy on my build again. Money, but no time is the issue now!!!!!!
 

scott t

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392173
Very good Scott.....I'm usually here lurking, just not a lot of free time.....Trying to get motivated to get busy on my build again. Money, but no time is the issue now!!!!!!
Well its good that you are still here to give people advice and spare the time to do it. Like I said in the thread you guys are awesome here and know your stuff about plumbing and Sumps. I dont know what I would have done without you and Corey to help out and not to mention the Sump for Flower... Ya'll are the best!!!
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3391933
So ive been thinking a lot lately about sumps and overflows. The more i read or here about it, the more i here of horrible floods~!
My question is how does one stop the flood if u lose siphon on ur overflow box or homemade DIY overflow? Obviously if the power outage hits than ur return pump will stop too but if u lose siphon are u just pretty much hosed?
For the most part overflows will hold the siphon when the power to pump is cut. So when power comes back on everything starts flowing like it should. Be careful with the diy overflows, some designs work good and others not so good. If everything is planned well, pump and overflow are sized appropriately then there's not much to worry about. Like Shawn mentioned, alot of floods occur when people aren't too familiar with running them at first and don't realize what's happening. There's a small learning curve dealing with your first overflow.
But a well planned set up is fairly safe.
Drilling is still a better way to go no matter what IMO. Priming an overflow and keeping an eye on it to make sure no air is building up in it or your aqua lifter pump is still working is just more of an inconvenience that you don't have to worry about when it comes a drilled tank.
Making sure you have enough room in your sump for back flow and building your return just right with a siphon break is really pretty simple, not much to it. You could get crazy and start calculating and plan to have your return chamber a certain size so that if your overflow ever did lose it's siphon somehow that the return chamber would be small enough that when it's pumped dry that it would never overflow your display tank. You might burn out your pump. But in this particular case it would be helpful to have your overflow set a little bit lower in the tank to allow the tank to handle an extra 4-6 or so gallons of water. Tangs Rule calculated it that for every 1" of water in your tank is just under 4 gallons. So having your water level in the tank set about an 1.5" from the top would allow for that extra water volume. If you go with a 20g sump then it shouldn't be that hard to figure out the size of your return chamber that you'd need to be on the safe side. Something like a 12"x12" return chamber with a water level 8" high would be right about 5 gallons minus the mass of the pump.
Lots of things you can do, just gotta get creative. Could maybe even throw a float type switch on the pump that will actually kick the pump off if the water level gets to low in the chamber.
 

1guydude

Well-Known Member
well i know with my 75gal i wanna do a sump and i was hoping to include most of my equipment in it like heater, a sock for the intake, a in sump skimmer(cuz i hear they are the goods), and the return! Was hoping to fit a fuge somewhere in there as well but i guess a hob one will suffice if i dont have enough room lol!
I think that would cover most of it! Any input would be great!
This build wont be happening any time soon lol so no rush! I can pick up a 20long for realtively cheap so that wont be the prob....the prob is i will prob need some thick acrylic for the baffles LOL, if thats wat they are called! The bubble trap dividers basically....
As for overflow im thinkin CPR with Toms lifter pump and id really like PVC but idk....
As flower said i dont trust me nor anyone to be drilling my tank.
btw thanks quills thats some good info!!!!!
edit:
O and ill prob be transfering all my other tanks into this one....so ill already have like 40-50gal of tank water and prob 40pounds of the rock! Hard to calculate the rock lol
I will be using new sand for this set up, just cuz i dont want to clean me sand and they are diff colors!!!!!!!!!!
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
properly adjusted there should be no floods.
if an overflow breaks siphon or plugs, the sump should run out of water before the upper container floods.
on power out the overflow should stop draining before the sump floods.
normal operation should resume with power return.
you can make a hob overflow with $20 of pvc see:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/370270/the-beaslbob-trap-s
one word of warning is that most tanks have tempered bottom glass and will shatter if drilled. Some have tempered side glass also.
So drilling can be dangerous but the pvc overflow is inexpensive and reliable.
I do recommend you setup a test with a couple of containers and play around with it. Better you have floods in the garadge instead of the living room.
my .02
 

1guydude

Well-Known Member
ya i was thinkin of doind a DIY type overflow....i like the idea of two intakes! Im just not expierenced at all with PVC nor sumps.... =(
 

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392726
ya i was thinkin of doind a DIY type overflow....i like the idea of two intakes! Im just not expierenced at all with PVC nor sumps.... =(
Learn by doing! And if you ever DO mess with PVC (which is gonna happen eventually) get the hand held pvc pipe cutters. they are 20-25 bucks, but worth every penny!.
 

scott t

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1guyDude http:///forum/thread/386283/overflow-question#post_3392227
well i know with my 75gal i wanna do a sump and i was hoping to include most of my equipment in it like heater, a sock for the intake, a in sump skimmer(cuz i hear they are the goods), and the return! Was hoping to fit a fuge somewhere in there as well but i guess a hob one will suffice if i dont have enough room lol!
I think that would cover most of it! Any input would be great!
This build wont be happening any time soon lol so no rush! I can pick up a 20long for realtively cheap so that wont be the prob....the prob is i will prob need some thick acrylic for the baffles LOL, if thats wat they are called! The bubble trap dividers basically.... I am sure if you ask Corey (2quills) or Shawn (acrylic51) they might advise against using acrylic for the baffles something about expanding and shrinking. You might better use glass for the baffles. the Baffles i got for mine were like 25.00 for all of them even for the bubble trap. Good Luck with the build its not that hard and like I said somewhere in one of my threads I started there is a sketch that Corey (2Quills) did for me...
As for overflow im thinkin CPR with Toms lifter pump and id really like PVC but idk....
As flower said i dont trust me nor anyone to be drilling my tank.
btw thanks quills thats some good info!!!!!
edit:
O and ill prob be transfering all my other tanks into this one....so ill already have like 40-50gal of tank water and prob 40pounds of the rock! Hard to calculate the rock lol
I will be using new sand for this set up, just cuz i dont want to clean me sand and they are diff colors!!!!!!!!!!
 
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