Pavlovs Puffer

kappadoku

Member
Got started on another post, but what does everything think about A fish's level of inteligence?
Case 1> Pavlovs Dog. Enough said.
Case 2> Certain Cephalopods exibiting experential learning. How different can a gray Octopus be from a puffer going nuts when he sees the food being mixed up in the kitchen? Do you know how many citters on this earth, besides man exibit experential learning? Like 5 fingers worth...
Opionions? More case studies?
Prove us all wrong!
 

blueberryboomer

Active Member
Kappadoku, I don't know about eveybody elses fishies, but mine are very smart. Why does are snowflake eel eat only feeder fish, we added a baby clarkie clown smaller then the average feeder, he doesn't bother him, niger Trigger is the same way. They come to the top of the tank when they see us come toward it with our little glass dishes we feed them from. I think they are very smart. Soon I will have them jumping through little hoops at the top of the tank....Ha! Ha! just kidding, but I still think they are very smart....Later Lisa
 

grouperhead

Active Member
my trigger has figured out how to spit food onto the intake tube and then come back and eat it later when hes hungry. hes a smart fish. my snowflake eel on the other hand, has bit my trigger a couple of times when he smelled food in the water and the trigger was to close to his tube. fish are smart, and they can learn. bo
 

nm reef

Active Member
I've got a high IQ percula.....he tryin carpet surfin....learned it ain't safe....and ain't attempted it since.......0_0
 

pufferlover

Active Member
Interesting concepts all but I still think for us to rule out thinking in animals is a little to self serving. If we want to discuss what is thinking then how do we explain the cases of Dolphins helping out people in trouble. It can't be reflex training since I doubt they do it every day but yet there are cases of them doing just that. The Navy has used them for many things that required heavy training and I wonder was that reflex or intelligence that allowed them to learn their tasks. In the case I brought up in the other post about my 2 Puffs who get so excited when they see me get their bowl I have other Puffs in the same room who don't react at all except to the food in the tank.
 

chopper320

Member
In my opinion, fish by know means are among the tops in intelligence, I just feel they are far more intelligent then they are given credit for. And why do we group all fish into the same category in intelligence levels? That's the same as saying all birds have the same intelligence level, which has definetly been proved otherwise.
To generalize all fish as being unintelligent creatures that lack any forethought or memory whatsoever is a very broad statement that doesn't take into account the great variances in marine life.
Obviously a porcupine puffer doesn't possess the same intelligence level as a dolphin, but it seems apparent that it is superior to the damsels in intelligence. IMHO :)
 
E

egg

Guest
Fish seem to exhibit a wide range of intelligence.
Octopods, for example, are EXTREMELY intelligent. Usually their intelligence is associate donly with their ability to escape but actually, they are quite capable of problem solving. I watch a show on PBS I think, which demonstrated a series of experiments:
An octopus was given a crab, which it ate.
The same octopus was given a glass jar without lid, with a crab inside. It failed to negotiate it's way in the open mouth of the jar, and was ismply fascinated by the crab through the glass walls.
This same octopus was then allowed to watch the crab being put inside the jar (outside of the tank). The jar was then reinserted, wherein the octopus immediately reached in nd ate the crab.
Now, the jar was sealed, again with a crab inside. The jar was placd in the tanks, and th octopus attacked the top of the jar like it had before when the jar was un-lidded. It failed to retrieve the crab.
Finally, the octopus was allowed to watch the lid be screwed onto the jar, with emphasis on the turning motion it took to do so. When placed back into the tank, the octopus managed to unscrew the lib, and remove the crab.
This intelligence is unlike anything observed in dolphins or birds. A lot of what humans percieve as intelligence has more to do with interspecies communication than actual mental agility. For exmaple, bird "people" will identify the African Grey as the smartest bird, and contest it to be one of the smartest animals. These birds are capable of learning how to identify shapes, and speak their names.
Now, don't we all think that an octopus that can learn to use lids ( a task too complicated for my mother ) could be reasonably assumed to be able to recognize shapes ( it must, of course, in order to be able to recognize a jar with a lid on it ). And yet, how would we know? The bird can tell use that it's performing these simple tasks, however the octopus cannot. One thing is for ceratin though, that a bird cannot be tought complex processes like unscrewing with months of repetition.
Again, consider dolphins, and dogs. They come when called, ******* emotion in via facial expression and tone of voice, and can be tought simple tricks. This convection of thought is usually percieved as intelligence. These animals are by no means dumb, however their intelligence might be over analyzed.
Fish respond to their "name" as well as dogs do, however we can't speak under water so the extent of my experience is fish that come out of hiding when the glass is tapped. There's really no other way to see if fish can respond to verbal commands, save for the experiment that was spoken before about a tirgger ringing a bell if it wanted food.
Where fish seem to lose credence in proving their intelligence is the inability to display emotion or vocalize. Since fish are unable to broadcast these higher level brian activities, the assumption is that they do not have them. However, no argument can really be made to that effect. It's well known that while most fish cannot vocalise or make facial expressions, they can in fact communicate with other sea life in way which are completely indetectable to our own senses. Chemical communication is a widely used form of inter and intra species communication among marine animals. In fact, it really is a more efficient form than vocalization is, since the language of the body is chemical in nature. Skeptics to this theory must conceed that these communications are widely seen and proven in the course of mating. Pheromones released into the water and analogous to saying "I'm a horny fish." We really can't know what might or might not be said in the waters because they don't do so in a way that we can understand.
Finally the debate about ability to learn tircks is moot. Nearly any animal, excluding reptiles, can learn actions through repetition, especially if and insticual condition (food) is involved. It seems that in the case of the octopus, however, it can learn without continual repetition, and even extrapolate information from multiple experiences (i.e. attacking lidded jar from the top, since that's how it got in the unlidded jar). Furthermore, bell ringing triggers demonstrate an ability to deviate form ingrained instinctual behavior i.e. "if hungry, ring bell", rather than "if hungry, look for clams".
Given that fish are certainly cpable of learning through repetition as well as through experience and extrapolation, we can place them higher than reptiles and rodents in intelligence, and in this catagory, on par with dogs, birds, and dolphins. In the case of communication, not much information is gained, but only due to our own lack of understanding. In way's we do understand (glass tapping, and bell ringing) they appear at least as able as dogs, birds, and dolphins, and still brighter than reptiles. I suppose it's quite visible now why it's so hard to speculate on the intelligence of fish, especially since "fish" is such a broad term.
Bottom line, I predict that "fish" in general are more intelligent than reptiles and rodents, and at least as intelligent as larger mammals and large birds.
 
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