pH and Alkalinity - Unmasked

sjimmyh

Member
I am writing this article in the hopes that it will make it to the sticky board so anyone having problems in the future can read it. Seems there is a common lack of understanding regarding pH and alkalinity.
You decide for whatever reason you want to read about alkalinity as it applies to our aquariums. What you will most likely find is that Alkalinity is a measure of the tanks ability to resist a change in pH. Okay, you understand this completely and head off to work your tank thinking you have got a great understanding of what you just read.
Here is where things get whacky. Some people will set up the tank and find that their pH is low when they have ideal alkalinity. From what they read they know that a higher alkalinity tends to give a higher pH. They also read about pH buffers when considering addition to the tank and learn these buffers will raise not just pH, but alkalinity too. Everything seems to fall in place with your knowledge still. For many people, this knowledge is good enough. They find that for their tank they run around 8.3 pH with an alkalinity of 10 dKH (or close to 3.5 meq/l). Even though this data tells me that they have a problem with the tank, the problem is managable and since the aquarist was able to deal with it effectively and still be in the "ideal" range for both pH and Alkalinity he/she goes on about their merry way none the wiser.
Enter the other folks. They find that they can't seem to keep pH in the "ideal" range. They add buffer to raise pH and it does work for a short while. The next day they find themselves very close to where they were before adding buffer. So, what's the story?
Okay, here is where the complete understanding of alkalinity in our tanks needs to be understood. At least, if you want to correct the pH issue. Alkalinity and pH go hand in hand. Calcium is very closely related too.
What your book most likely didn't tell you about alkalinity is that a specific alkalinity should give you a specific pH under normal conditions. Even though they are not the same measurement it may help you to think that they are two ways to measure the same thing with respect to our tanks. I know of no synthetic sea salt that doesn't fall into this catagory when mixed so don't worry about that for now. Some salts are better at some things, but thats just us trying to get our tanks tweeked to ideality.
The following describes approximate pH in seawater for a given meq/l alkalinity: (dKH is just meq/l x 2.8) (2 meq/l = 5.6 dKH)
ALK pH
1.o 7.92
2.0 8.21
3.0 8.33
4.0 8.42
5.0 8.50
6.0 8.55
Notice that the pH increase per meq/l change goes down as alkalinity goes up. This will be important later.
There is one impurity that typically enters our tanks to mess with this relationship. That is Carbon Dioxide (CO2). CO2 forms carbonic acid when disolved in water and can throw this alkalinity to pH relationship off. Bottom line, if you do not have close to the pH listed for a given alkalinity in your tank then you are dealing with excess CO2. With high CO2 you would need a higher alkalinity than 2 meq/l to get an 8.2 pH.
Lets look at adding buffer to correct the issue. We add buffer which raises alkalinity and pH both. Temporarily, the problem seems solved and if you have a small CO2 problem small additions of buffer or alkalinity additive on a regular basis will permanently solve the problem. IF, you have sufficient CO2, it will not. Here is why.
Higher alkalinity levels tend to precipitate Calcium. Calcium is a pretty big part of alkalinity. By precipitating Calcium you actually lower the alkalinity. Confusing? Just think of there being a "cap" on alkalinity levels in your tank. If you go too high, the tank will balance itself back to lower levels. PH buffers raise alkalinity to raise pH. If you have a very low pH (read as high CO2) you will need to raise alkalinity a lot to get a big change in pH (remember that pH goes up less for a 1 meq/l change in alkalinity if alkalinity is already high). If you go too high in alkalinity, the tank balances itself out by lowering alkalinity back down. PH follows this lowering of alkalinity and you're suddenly back at the pH and alkalinity levels you started with. The only remedy to this yo-yo is to lower the excess CO2 in your tank.
I will write an article about this to follow. For now, understand that for a given alkalinity you should always get the same pH levels. If you do not (your pH is different than the chart I gave you above for the listed alkalinity), than CO2 is most likely the culpret. If you are victom to a large amount of CO2 in your tank then you may never be able to obtain an alkalinity large enough to give you an ideal pH due to the tank wanting to balance it all back out again.
I do hope this helps your understanding of alkalinity, at least with how it relates to pH, a little better.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
good read. I would bump it once for the archives if there isnt a thread dedicaterd to alk and PH there already.
 

sjimmyh

Member
There is, but not to this extent. Lots of posts lately too being started that wouldn't have if the person knew this stuff already.
 

sjimmyh

Member
Okay, its monday. Bumping this once. But yet again, someone started a thread about a low pH problem.
 

estein02

Member
Caught this at a good time. When I tested my water tonight I got a reading of 8.4 for pH and 13.6 dkh for alkalinity (used API for ph and Salifert for dkh). I'm more comfortable with reading the ph results then I am with the dkh, but assuming I test dkh correctly, what do I do to lower it to normal levels. From your post SJimmyH it seems like I have an abundance of CO2. I think this is related, but currently I have glass lids on my tank to help keep the cat out. Could that be causing the elevated dkh levels?
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Great thread but apparently i missed the unmasked part,(it's just techniques) here's is why: you said it yourself ph and alkalinity go hand in hand..
Now, you also said this: "Here is where things get whacky. Some people will set up the tank and find that their pH is low when they have ideal alkalinity"
i missed those threads cause like i have mention numerous times you cannot chase any individual numbers..
If you have a tank that has a normal ph, with a high alkalinity .(or visa-versa) the plain and simple step is to do large waterchange to get things back within range..forget any additives,buffers,turbo calcium,two par additives, kak..ect..you're just going to make things more out of whack then it already is..
your say....
 

estein02

Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Great thread but apparently i missed the unmasked part,(it's just techniques) here's is why: you said it yourself ph and alkalinity go hand in hand..
Now, you also said this: "Here is where things get whacky. Some people will set up the tank and find that their pH is low when they have ideal alkalinity"
i missed those threads cause like i have mention numerous times you cannot chase any individual numbers..
If you have a tank that has a normal ph, with a high alkalinity .(or visa-versa) the plain and simple step is to do large waterchange to get things back within range..forget any additives,buffers,turbo calcium,two par additives, kak..ect..you're just going to make things more out of whack then it already is..
your say....
When you state do a large water change, what do you mean by large...25%, 50%?
 

aztec reef

Active Member
whatever it takes to get things back to normal, start with a 50%. then in a couple of days do another one if needed.. you could even do larger if you wanted to like 60% 80% or whatever..
 

dawman

Active Member
Since I started using RO my ph is 7.4 ish after mixing the salt . I found using Seachem`s marine buffer doesn`t raise alk and maintains my ph at 8.4 . I have been back and forth with a very reputable reefer locally . When I was using tap water I never had a problem with the ph but always have had a high dkh reading no matter what I do ,tap or RO . All of my tanks have high dkh , actually before using RO I had 16 DKH and with RO 12-13 DKH . Been using Oceanic salt and thought about trying Red Sea Coral Pro as they state it is best for using with RO water .
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Originally Posted by Dawman
Since I started using RO my ph is 7.4 ish after mixing the salt . I found using Seachem`s marine buffer doesn`t raise alk and maintains my ph at 8.4 . I have been back and forth with a very reputable reefer locally . When I was using tap water I never had a problem with the ph but always have had a high dkh reading no matter what I do ,tap or RO . All of my tanks have high dkh , actually before using RO I had 16 DKH and with RO 12-13 DKH . Been using Oceanic salt and thought about trying Red Sea Coral Pro as they state it is best for using with RO water .
what ph do you have after aerating your newly mixed saltwater for 24hrs with a powerhead ?
well here's another example how you cannot lower Alk with a buffer.. i bet your problem comes from using Oceanic salt with the addition of the buffer..
here's another example where Jimmy's theory fails, as it fouls it self by not driving ph up when you always had Alk high..and why isn't your alkalinity going down, eversince you've been using RO wich has been giving you low end ph?
Another thing new hobbiest make a mistake on is trying to find the right saltmix..It doesn't exist..just use the regular stuff like IO or reef crystals for a reef..
Who cares which saltmix has the highest calcium or alkalinity or ph. you're NOT trying to fix a single parameter with a water change either remember?
 

dawman

Active Member
Aztec Reef said:
what ph do you have after aerating your newly mixed saltwater for 24hrs with a powerhead ?
The ph is 7.4 the day I mix , 24 hours and even 48 hours . That is why I am using the Marine buffer . My Alk went down from 16 to 12/13 when switching to RO . I am on a well and tried running my ro right from the well and after our water softener , iron filter , and sulfer filters , doesn`t make a difference .
 

geoj

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
whatever it takes to get things back to normal, start with a 50%. then in a couple of days do another one if needed.. you could even do larger if you wanted to like 60% 80% or whatever..
Water change will not fix Co2 prob. the Co2 is at a level that is related to gas exchange and the local Co2 in the air
Doing a water change will only change Co2 for temp then gas exchange sends it back to what it was... this time frame is short one or two hours
Don’t forget that Co2 changes with temperature and the corals, algae, and microorganisms aerobic respiration (in oxygen out carbon dioxide) so when the light on more Co2
So you need to think is the tanks aerobic respiration the cause or is the air outside the tank?
 

sepulatian

Moderator
It also depends on your other levels. A high concentration of nitrates will lower your ph as will a lack of oxygen. The KH doesn't depict the ph, just the ability to maintain the ph if all else is well. If a tank doesn't have a skimmer the disolved organics create acid which will lower the ph. All Alkalinity is is the ABILITY to keep the ph within range. That is all.
 

geoj

Active Member
Check out Chuck's Planted Aquarium Pages and make sure
the Phosphates=0
Here are some quotes
"Myth: CO2 level can be adjusted simply by adding chemicals to alter the KH or pH.
This is a common misconception when using the CO2 / KH / pH table. It appears that by altering any parameter, the other values should move. But this is not true. Treat the pH value you see as a result. If you alter the KH, then the pH will move. If you alter the CO2 level, then the pH will move. The pH will always react to changes in either of the other two parameters. "
"You can not alter the KH levels other than by adding or removing carbonate. You can not alter the CO2 levels other than by adding or removing CO2.
Adding certain "pH altering additives" can cause much confusion as well. Additives like "Proper pH 7.0" which force the pH to a certain value completely invalidate the CO2 / KH / pH relationship. This is because these pH altering additives contain phosphates. Phosphates replace the carbonates in the buffering system. And the CO2 / KH / pH relationship is only valid in a system that is buffered by Carbonates.
There is on case I've seen where the addition of CO2 resulted in an increase in KH. This can happen when you have something in the tank that dissolves carbonate into the water. Seashells, crushed coral, and many gravels and rocks will do this. With the addition of CO2, the water turns more acidic, which will increase the dissolving of the minerals. It appears that increasing CO2 raises the KH, which isn't really the case. The dissolving minerals raise the KH, and the increase in KH results in an increase in pH. In a system using a pH probe and controller to regulate CO2 levels, this can have fatal consequences, since the pH controller will keep trying to lower the pH, but as more CO2 is dissolved, it lowers the pH, which raises the KH, which raises the pH. So you now have more CO2, but the same pH. So the controller adds even MORE co2. And it will keep going. So it's important to know your KH whenever using pH to judge CO2 levels. "
and that the buffered water is Phosphate free
 

sepulatian

Moderator
There is on case I've seen where the addition of CO2 resulted in an increase in KH. This can happen when you have something in the tank that dissolves carbonate into the water. Seashells, crushed coral, and many gravels and rocks will do this. With the addition of CO2, the water turns more acidic, which will increase the dissolving of the minerals. It appears that increasing CO2 raises the KH, which isn't really the case. The dissolving minerals raise the KH, and the increase in KH results in an increase in pH. In a system using a pH probe and controller to regulate CO2 levels, this can have fatal consequences, since the pH controller will keep trying to lower the pH, but as more CO2 is dissolved, it lowers the pH, which raises the KH, which raises the pH. So you now have more CO2, but the same pH. So the controller adds even MORE co2. And it will keep going. So it's important to know your KH whenever using pH to judge CO2 levels. "
and that the buffered water is Phosphate free
I am sorry, I should not have made it sound as though KH was nothing. You are correct, it is important to know the kh of the water. Forgive me for making it sound as though it was nothing to be concerned with. I was stressing the fact that your KH can be perfecty fine yet your PH drop for other reasons.
 

kilhullen

Member
I know this is probably a stupid question, but being new at this, and all, it seemed like the right place to ask this.
I have a QT tank 30 gal that I am trying to set up and cycle. Here are the current parameters:
temp 78.5
SG 1.025
Ammonia 1
Nitrite 2.5
Nitrate (unreadable)
pH 8.2
Alk High (I don't have a number yet - I know I need one, but there is a box that says normal and it is way at the high end of the spectrum. A perfect match for the color on the end of the test range using the Red Sea Kit.)
In the tank I have a HOB filter with a sponge, and a carbon filter. I have one powerhead pointed at the surface (no bubbles, just choppy water) and as a substrate I have about 1" coral sand.
I saw where GeoJ said it could be due to disolved minerals. I have not used any additives except for treating the tapwater to remove cholrine and cholorimine. Everything else is just as it is. I thinnk I like my pH at 8.2 because I want a reef and so I want my QT tank to be as close to the DT as possible.
If the Alk reading is the ability for the water to absorb acids and still maintain the same pH, isn't having a high reading or number good?
Is having a high alk bad? Is it dangerous to fish, macroalge, corals, etc? I am still trying to cycle the tank (I have 2 shrimp laying on the bottom in there but we are just getting started).
 

dawman

Active Member
My trates and phosphates are 0 . I`ll test my water before and after mixing salt and post them .
 

dawman

Active Member
Ok , I made some fresh RO and used the water I mixed wed. night .
Fresh RO ; PH -6.5 , Alk - 5.6 DKH
Premixed with oceanic salt @ 1.025 , PH - 7.0 Alk - 15 DKH
my tanks right now are PH - 8.4 , Alk - 13dkh
Have been using Seachem`s Marine buffer 8.4 to raise the ph . Do I need aeration in the tank ? Maybe I should put an air stone in my sump ?

One of my LFS told me not to get too concerned with the Alk and just make sure everything else is good .
 
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