PH Low! Is it time for Kalk?

npage

Member
My PH is consistently low.
The tank is about 3 months old.
Should I start dripping Kalk or is it too soon?

Livestock -
2 Perc Clowns, Candy Cane, Frogspawn frag, Favia frag
25 assort snails, 12 hermit crabs
Water parm-
PH 7.8 to 7.4
Alkalinity 3.7
dKH 10.2
Calcium 410
Temp 81.0
Ammonia 0.00
Nitrite 0.00
Nitrate 15.00
SG 1.027
 

npage

Member
I forgot to mention- I have a Milwaukee ph44 electronic Ph meter.
And yes, I have calibrated it.
 

npage

Member
Ok, I added an airline tube from my skimmers air-intake to outside of my stand, figuring that it needed fresher air.
Its still 7.6

Anyone have any suggestions?
 

moneyman

Member
Is your top open or covered by a piece of glass/acrylic?
Is there an oil-film at the water line?
What's your tank size? flow rate? Using what pumps?
Take a cup of tank water to an open window. Agitate it using an airpump and some tubing. Measure the pH of the sample after an hour. If your pH is higher, you have CO2 problem.
 

npage

Member
Open top. I have an AllGlass Mission Canopy with 2 120mm fans that blow across the water when the MHs come on.
No oily film.
75 gallon. Megaflow Overflow System (guessing 500 gpm) Magdrive 9.5 return and 3 MaxiJet 1200 powerheads on an Aquarium Systems Natural Wave Timer.
I'll try the aerated water test. Got to run out to get an airpump first...
 

sjimmyh

Member
We just had a really big discussion thread on CO2, alkalinity and pH.
With your alkalinity being on the mid to high end and your pH being so low I can almost positively tell you that CO2 is responsible.
You just need to figure out if the CO2 is high because the tank is "holding on" to excess CO2 which means you just need to aggitate it more and increase the surface gas exchange to push the water to expell the excess.
-OR-
You have high CO2 in your house (due to good air tightness and you and anything else in the house breathing). The cure for this is kalkwasser or increasing the amount of fresh air into the house (or both). Fresh air into the house can be easy or complex depending on your energy costs, use of A/C, etc. Kalkwasser is really good at removing excess CO2. I am using it in this current situation, myself. The limit with Kalkwasser is your evaporation rate. Unfortunately, my evaporation rate is quite slow. I drip Kalk slowly and can only use so much of it.
Even this slow drip raised my pH while lowering my alkalinity (kind of correcting the low pH and high Alk issue all in one method). I went from this:
pH peak of 7.99 with alkalinity of 14 dKH
To this:
pH peak of 8.10 with alkalinity of 10 dKH
Not ideal, but much better off than I was.
Think the name of the old thread was "alk to high, ph to low". I would look for it and link it, but I don't think I know how if I did find it.
 

sjimmyh

Member
Oh, sorry... to tell if you just need to aerate the tank more bubble the sample of tank water next to the DT. If pH goes up after a few hours (the longer you bubble, the more sure you can be) then aerating your tank will increase the pH by lowering its CO2.
If you bubble with fresh outside air and pH goes up, but the bubbling with inside air didn't... then you are dealing with a CO2 issue inside the house.
Just so you know, an Alkalinity of 3 meq/l or around 8 dKH should give you a pH of around 8.3. If it doesn't, your CO2 is almost surely high. How far off you are will tell you how much of a CO2 issue you have. Most any tank that is not ventilated with outside air will have some elevated CO2, but if you can maintain it in the optimum pH range without giving yourself too high an alkalinity to do so, it really is a non-issue.
 

rmahnick

Member
Originally Posted by MoneyMan
Is your top open or covered by a piece of glass/acrylic?
Is there an oil-film at the water line?
There are look alike oil on top of DT? that sign of too much Carbon Dioxide?
 

npage

Member
Thanks all. Still got to find time to run out and get that air pump.

SJimmyH, you bring up a good point about the air tightness of the house.
The house is a year old and built very "tight", to the point it came with a fresh air intake fan and timer to keep the air from getting stale.
I did keep the windows open for several hours in the room the tank is in once I noticed the low pH. It didn't seem to help.
Once I get that air pump I'll run those other tests.
 

moneyman

Member
Originally Posted by rmahnick
There are look alike oil on top of DT? that sign of too much Carbon Dioxide?
An oil film on top of the DT will hinder gas exchange. The oil film can lead to low oxygen and high carbon dioxide.
 

sjimmyh

Member
Originally Posted by NPage
Thanks all. Still got to find time to run out and get that air pump.

SJimmyH, you bring up a good point about the air tightness of the house.
The house is a year old and built very "tight", to the point it came with a fresh air intake fan and timer to keep the air from getting stale.
I did keep the windows open for several hours in the room the tank is in once I noticed the low pH. It didn't seem to help.
Once I get that air pump I'll run those other tests.
I did the same as you. (with the windows) As my house is also a year old, but I do not have a fresh air intake on the A/C unit. My conlusions are that it takes way too long to air out a house using windows and still maintain temperature control in the home. I kept windows open and fans moving air as long as my wife and family could take until they begged me to shut them and let the air conditioner cool off the house. I can't even honestly say that it really had a readable effect on pH. (it may have, but not enough to draw that conclusion as the normal pH swings in the tank were still going on)
I made the assumption that unless I can continuously provide fresh air to the tank it just won't correct my pH issue. I do supply fresh air to the skimmer as this seems to help a little better than my first idea of bubbling fresh air in the tank and covering the tank top with a glass canopy to try to keep the air on top of the tank was as fresh as possible. The glass canopy had a bad side effect of trapping in too much heat. The skimmer also seems to be our best component to effect gas exchange. (at least it seems to be in my tank)
The film on top the tank would only be a problem for CO2 if the house air had good CO2 concetrations (not too excessive). The tank may be trying to expell excess CO2 to the home air and is unable to do so effectively with the film on the water. If the CO2 in the house is really high though I don't think the film is a CO2 problem... the home is. BUT the film would effect the waters ability to absorb O2 regardless. (I can assure you that the home has more o2 in the air than the tank water does and the film would hinder the water absorbing more O2)
 

npage

Member
Originally Posted by teen
do you have a sand bed?
Yes, a 4" to 6" sandbed.
Theres no film on the water. The returns are pointed slightly upwards, so I have very good surface breaking.
I got my Air Pump
and I ran a little test.
I filled 4 different glasses with tank water. I put 2 outside and left 2 inside. I put an airstone in one of the glasses outside and an airstone in one inside. After an hour I tested them again for pH. Here are the results...

The best I could get was 8.0; outside with an airstone in it!
Everything else stayed the same. WTF?
 

azfishgal

Active Member
Glad I'm not alone. Here is the link to that thread: https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/273729/ph-to-low-alk-to-high
I bought some Kalk mix, but still need to get it up and running, or dripping I should say. Just trying to figure out how to do it, never done it before so I'm a bit lost on how. I have an acclimation drip line that I use to acclimate my new fish, that should work I believe.
Hey Jimmy, how often should I drip? I think I remember someone saying they just do it at night, using a 2 liter bottle. Do you do it every night, or a few times a week during the night? I know every tank is different, so maybe I should start with one night (low dose) and then test my tank.
 

sjimmyh

Member
The longer you bubble it (an hour isnt much time) the more change you would most likely see. If you read about these tests most of them recommend bubbling for 6-12 hours. (this is the reason I do not think opening windows in your house for an hour or so would help much)
The fact that it went up at all says you have excess CO2 in the water. (btw, a 0.3 change in pH is pretty big, IMO) If you want to see just how much you can bubble it for the entire recommended period (or you can just look it up on the graph of pH vs. Alkalinity). Why did the airstone raise it when the non-airstone didnt? My guess is, the airstone is more efficient mixing air and water and would take less time for a pH change. I think if you let it bubble outside (out of the light to prevent photosynthesis) without an airstone long enough, you would see the change in that sample too.
I bubbled for a little more than an hour on my samples, but I wasn't looking for a final pH of the sample to be where I wanted the tank to be. I was only looking for evidence that aeration with outside air made a measurable pH change (up). This would let me know that although I don't know exactly how much of a CO2 issue I have... I do have one. The graphed information told me that it was likely to be a large problem from the specifications of my tank. That was good enough for me.
-edit-
In the month I have been dealing with this same issue in my own tank here is what I have done.
Added an airstone to the DT and to the sump. Overall change in pH was too small to be sure it was doing anything.
Added another two airstones to the DT. (four total now with two large air pumps rated for 100 gal or more) Covered the tank with a glass canopy and plastic to create a small positive pressure within the cover. Idea was to maximize surface gas exchange with the fresh air being bubbled into the tank. Overall change in pH was about 0.05. Starting to think that bubbling alone may not be enough for a larger CO2 problem.
Added a line to the overflow tube "

[hr]
". This is the opening on the upside down "U" piping that was my overflow. Its purpose is to mix air into the overflow to minimize noise. Ran this line to the outside air so that air mixing with the overflow was "fresh". At this point, I had already come to the conclusion that bubbling and fresh air lines worked, but the amount that would be required to "fix" my tank made it not cost effective nor did it make all the lines out the back of the tank any cleaner and prettier looking. (starting to give it the image of a patient in Critical Care with all the lines going into the tank) I bought all the items needed to drip kalkwasser at this time also.
The next day I was showing approximately the same overall pH increase of only around 0.05. Since I was running around 7.8 to 7.9 on average before starting any of this, this was not enough for what I wanted. I had made up the kalk drip last night and started the drip in the morning. Over the next 4 hours or so I had a very noticable increase in pH and my alkalinity had dropped from 14 dKH to 10 dKH. Knowing that pH will drop with an alkalinity drop (unless CO2 is involved), yet my pH had increased with an alkalinity drop it was immediately apparant that kalkwasser was far more effective at CO2 removal than bubbling fresh air (outside hooking a Paxton Turbo fan to one of my powerheads
thats an automobile turbo for those of you that may not know).
Since then my main concern was to maximize evaporation rate so as to maximize my ability to drip Kalkwasser. To do this, I took that canopy back off, moved all the airstones into the skimmer and placed a clip on walmart fan on the tank to blow accross the water surface. Wouldn't this just mix more CO2 into the water? I thought of that too, but turns out the Kalkwasser works faster. My nightime pH low is now 8.0 since I have tweeked the drip rate. My dKH is around 10-11 on average and I used Mg, Strontium, and 2 part Ca additives to maintain these elements (kalk can deplete all 3 of these over time).
 

sjimmyh

Member
Even though that post was long (I seem to be doing that a lot lately), I have more to the story.
I use a very good external pump, but the manufacturer warned that it would increase temps by around 6 degrees in the tank. He wasn't lying! I went from about 81 to 87. 87 was too high for me. O2 in the water goes down as temps go up and I didn't want to be anywhere near oxygen starvation in my tank. So I bought a 515 dollar chiller. All hunky dorey now, right?
It was... until the chiller decided to stop working correctly on day 5. So I called the LFS and had them order a replacement. Meanwhile, I had to do something to help with the temps until the new chiller comes in on this Tuesday. So, I buy a 12 dollar clip on fan from Walmart (this was the actual reason I bought the fan). I think to myself that this should provide some cooling for the temps and will have a side bennefit of increasing evaporation, allowing me to drip more Kalkwasser.
Want to know what my temps are with the 12 dollar fan? 78 degrees at night and about 79 with the lights on.
Needless to say, I am not getting a replacement chiller. I will be getting more livestock though
.
 

azfishgal

Active Member
Jimmy, with all that said, you didn't tell me how long you drip (during the night, all day long?). I'm just trying to get an idea before I start and do something wrong. I'm going to mix my Kalk today and if I'm not mistaken I need to wait several hours before dripping, so the stuff can settle, but to have my drip line just above the bottom of the bottle (holding the Kalk mix) so it doesn't pick up the stuff that settled on the very bottom. Is that right?
Edit: Never mind answering, I just asked some questions on your new thread about the Kalk Dripping.
 
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