Phosphates - what is too high?

[trippclark]

Okay, I know that the simple answer is anything over zero is too high. I have been battling brown hair algae for over a month now and have mentioned this in other threads as I toyed with lighting adjustments and such. The Brown algae has not gotten much worse, but it has not gotten any better either . . . even after dropping hours of light to just 4 per day. I am now still at between 5 and 6 hours a day (440W VHO flourescent Actinic White over 55 gal tank).
Last night I checked levels again. Temp is steady at about 80 degrees. pH is at 8.3, Nitrates and Nitrites are at 0. Ca is at 420 and KH is at 12. SG is at 1.025. Phosphates are at 0.6 on a low-range test kit. I know that 0.6 is higher than I want, and I picked up a phosphate sponge today to start bringing them down, but to me 0.6 sounds pretty low to be causing all of the algae I am seeing. So at what level do phosphates start throwing things out of whack? Am I above this level, or have I still not found the cause of my problem.
Or, another thought is that Phosphates are consumed by the very brown algae that I am battling, so the fact that they are ONLY 0.6 is because of the brown algae, and that actually I am creating or intruducing much more Phosphates, and much of them are being consumed by the algae???

 

[beaslbob]

you reduce you lighting to kill off plants and the plants will stop consuming phosphates and nitrogen compounds and carbon dioxide as well. With an establishee biological filter your phosphates, nitrates and carbon dioxide will rise as plant activity is decreased by such things a removing the algae or reduced lighting.
In my experience after about 3 weeks the browns slowly change to the green algaes as phosphates are consumed.
the best of everything is to add plant life to out compete the algaes for the nutrients. The second best is to leave the algae alone. Though ugly, the algae will make the tank water much better for future livestock.
With either, an established plant life will result in reduced problems when livestock is in the system.
I do not trust nor like phosphate sponges.

 

[trippclark]

hmmm . . . .
Well, the brown algae did start turning green about 10 days ago. I could not take it anymore and I scraped it off of the glass. I then cleaned all of the sponges (3) that I have on powerheads and on my overflow, because I figured all of the algae particles would gunk them up and cause nitrites to spike.
I have, as one step in this battle, created a small refugium (approx 4 gallons) under the tank. This I set up 3 weeks ago. It has LS and macros that I bought on ---- (my wife was incredulous that I was bidding on and buying "algae"). This is under a single 15W NO flourescent running 24/7. These plants seem to be doing well (they are rooting into the sand and growing), but they are begining to get covered with brown hair algae also.
As far as feeding, I feed every other day. I feed with Formula One mini-cubes frozen food. I take one of these and cut it into about 8 - 10 pieces and feed one every other day. Up until recently, I had 3 fish (percula clown, small yellow tang, and Royal Gramma). I am now down to just the clown! The Gramma was found dead on Christmas morning, and the Tang about 3 days later. Both showed no ill symptoms in advance, and since last week I found and removed a small mantis, I am blaming him for the deaths.
I also have 3 peppermint shrimp and a coral banded shrimp.
I have a cleanup crew with 2 brittle stars, 3 emerald crabs, about 6 scarlet hermits, probably 12 or more blue leg hermits, about 7 nassarius(sp?) snails, and perhaps 7 astrea snails. Snail population is dropping by one every couple of days (darn blue leg murderers!!)
Oh, another mention y'all had was water changes, and I have been doing more water changes in the past two months than I have ever done. I use Aquarium Pharm's Tap Water Filter to produce purified DI water, so I don't think the phosphates are coming in in the water.
Tripp

 

[beaslbob]

Sorry about your losses. And they are adding and could be a main source for the brown algaes.
Refug is small but a good step in the right direction.
Keep it up until the plants crowd out the algaes.

 

[trippclark]

Thanks Bob. I did get the mantis though!! Right now he is in the Fuge cause I can't bring myself to kill him, even though I think that he killed my 2 fish. I have not decided what I will do with him long term.
Yeah, now I am afraid that the brown algae covering the macros in the fuge might kill the macros. Is that a reasonable fear???
I don't really like the idea of using the Phosphate Sponge ("Phos-Zorb"). That seems to be treating the symptom and not the problem. But my thought is to use it this time for a few weeks to get the phosphates down to below 0.2 until the macros in the fuge get well established. Then, or so I theorize, the macros will be kicked in well and will balnce things off by consuming phosphates (and nitrites) more efficiently. Does that sound like a reasonable course of action, or should I take the Phos-Zorb back to the LFS and just bite my lip for a few weeks and let the brown algae go until the macros choke them out in the long run?

 

[birdy]

Have you tested the water that comes out of that DI unit for phophates? If I were you I would to that and either get a TDS meter or somehow test your water for TDS to see how much stuff is getting through that filter (I haven't heard very good things about them. I have seen that brown hair algae before and I don't think it is quite as bad as the green or bryopsis but it can still be a pain to get rid of. I suggest pulling out as much of it by hand as possible during weekly 10% water changes. Be sure your water source is pure and having a refugium will definitely help.
I do use a phosphate sponge on occasion, I have never had any problems with it, it is not really adding a chemical to the tank, it is sucking out the phophate just like using carbon to polish up the water. I have heard that there are some phosphate sponges that are safer than others.
I also drip kalk which is suppose to help precipitate phosphates out of the water.
When I was having horrible problems with green hair algae, I changed everything, from my light bulbs to every filter in my RO/DI unit, and most of the water after a month of water changes. It still wouldn't go away. The only thing I hadn't changed was my refugium, it was full of macro's but also full of hair algae, the last thing I did was totally empty it and start it up with all new macro. This time it did not grow any bad algae in the fuge and after taking most of my rocks out and scrubbing them down (I also turned my lights off for two weeks to kill it all). The stuff has never come back. I don't know if the hair algae in the fuge was causing a problem but I didn't want to take the chance.
Good luck!

 

[beaslbob]

I have also done only turning my lights off. the hair algae dies off faster than the plants/macros because they have less stored energy. the when you turn the lights back on there is a higher portion of desirables to uglies. Only shoud take once or twice to get the macros/plants ahead of the uglies.

 

[trippclark]

Birdy,
Good thought to test my water coming out of the purifier for phosphates. I know that I have tested it for Nitrites and Nitrates (0), but I can't recall testing Phosphates; and if I have it has been a while.
Tripp

 

[trippclark]

Okay, I just tested my filtered DI water from the Tap Water Filter. I tested it twice to be sure. If my kit can be trusted, the Phosphates in the water are at 0.2 (and maybe 0.3). This is the water that I use for mixing for water changes and for all top-offs, so indeed the water is at least part of the problem. I put the Phos-Zorb phostphate sponge in and a new Poly Filter. I also cut the light off over the fuge.
I am not sure what to do long term though. It will be time to change the cartridge on the filter in about 15-20 gallons. I buy them in groups of three and have two extras on hand. I am hoping that the next one will read at zero phosphates, but I am not optimistic.

 

[birdy]

You still need to pull all that algae out, because when it dies it releases all the nutrients it consumes and feeds new algae.
You also may want to beef up your cleanup crew, hermits and trochus snails are the best at eating this type of algae IMO.