Pictures of Emporer in Hypo....Need help

hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
I was finally able to get a camera so here are the pictures and the latest stats on my QT........(it's been set up since Jan 12th) Water was perfect when I started........
Ammo 0.05
Nitrites Maybe .2 (test kit reads from .1 to .3 and it looks right in between)
Nitrates 10
PH 8.1
Alk 2.25 (could be wrong it's an old test kit)
Sal 1.009
Temp 78.8
Phos .1 (again, could be wrong old test kit)
I have a 6 gallon bucket made up of DT water and RODI water at 1.009 with a temp of 76.8. Swapped out 3 gallons this morning with RODI at 1.009. I could be losing my BIO so I made up the other 6 gallons with DT water just in case.....
The dot cloest to his top fin is raised and look like a pimple. It had redness in it last night but that seems to be gone.
He is eating like a champ Mysis, brine, and flake all soaked in garlic and Selcon..... Even eats the little pieces of garlic......
Please help I really don't want to lose this one.......
Kinda figured I would jinx myself by posting a couple of days ago that things were going so well..........

 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
Swapped out 1 1/2 gallons of my DT/RODI mixture.
Ammo still the same
Nitrites are now down to almost zero.........
Still need help. Don't want to keep changing out water just to find out I am making things worse.........
FYI: He doesn't look nearly as bad with a magnifying glass up close..... (must be the flash on the camera.......)
 
nicetry

nicetry

Active Member
The discolored spots are a symptom of ****** and will resolve in time once the fish is well. So nitrites are going down but still some ammo? You can try a couple things; do smaller water changes for a few days (1 gallon). I'm thinking you may be disrupting the biolfiltration. You can try some Ammo-lock to see if it helps. The contant presence of ammo is not good. You put the other aged sponge filter in, right?
Feed sparingly as well. Even a day w/o food is fine for this fish. Really try to get ammo to 0.
 
peter1215

peter1215

Member
how long does it usually take for the ich to drop off the fish after the hypo treatments begins ? how many days should one wait before opting for a different method such as copper if the hyppo is not working ?
 
peter1215

peter1215

Member
Beth
someone in the lfs told me today that they use both methods, hyppo and cuppramine at the same time and that it works bettor tht using either by itself. would you agree with this ?
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
Yes I did put the other sponge in and have plenty left if I need it. Tested this morning and trites are still at zero but there is still ammo. I think you are right that I could be losing my BIO. I am going to the LFS this morning and try the Ammo-Lock. I have not used Ammo-lock, will it still show that I have Ammo when I test and just make it non toxic or will it remove it? The reason I am asking is that if it just detoxifies it and still shows in a test I don't want to think I still have an issue with Ammo.
I am glad to hear that the spots will go away once I can get him healthy.
ICH has reappeared on him. Yesterday there was only one dot of ICH left and this morning there are about 20. I am sure the ICH is still going through it's life cycle. I just wish this stuff would drop off so I can start my 3 week countdown.
The pimple has not gotten any worse still the same size and color. If it gets worse I will get some Myacyn 2 and treat as needed.
Eating has not been a problem with this guy. I feed just enough to last no more than 60 seconds in the tank so there is non left, but even if there is he picks ALL of it off the bottom. HE'S A PIG.......... (Not complaining) I am very happy that he is eating........
I will post more this afternoon after trying the Ammo-Lock........
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Products like Ammo-Lock and Amquel do not remove the nitrogen compounds - they convert them to less toxic substances. Depending on what kind of test you are running the ammonium levels may or may not be measurable. If you test is based on Nessler's reagent you will get a brown color that will not read. If the kit uses salicylate it will work fine to measure "ammonium". The converted, less toxic, compounds will disappear, probably by bacterial action, and will actually keep the cycle developing.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by peter1215
Beth
someone in the lfs told me today that they use both methods, hyppo and cuppramine at the same time and that it works bettor tht using either by itself. would you agree with this ?
Works better for the LFS, however, angelfish and tangs have low tolerance for copper. I even doubt that the LFS take care in how they administer copper.
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
Thanks for the quick response. I can now check my test kit prior to go the the LFS.....
I will give updates as they come available.......
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
Of course after looing at the test kit it does not say so I guess I will just have to find out. I have a Hagen Nutrafin Ammo test kit. Is there anything else out the better that any of you would suggest??????? This is only for the QT until I can move him to the DT. I will have to break the QT down and start over again cause work has now told me I have a lot of traveling to do. I will have it set back up within 4 weeks so losing the water at this point is no big deal because I will have to re-cycle anyway..... I just don't want to lose the fish.....
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Hog: I looked at the Hagen site for info about your test kit, but they don't say what technology they use. You could just try a test - if the test solution turns brown it is Nessler's-based, and no good. If it turns a color that is on the color card, then it is salicylate-based, and should be fine to use.
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
Thanks for all of the info. I got the Ammo-Lock and added it. Tested the water within 10 min. and to my suprise it tested at 0........ I have just destressed quite a bit......... The ICH that was on him this morning is gone but I am going to take a look tomorrow and if there is none then I will start my 3 week count.....
I really want to say thanks to all on this site that make this a place to come to and get REAL GOOD feedback on issues we face. I have had a Saltwater tank for going on 8 years now and guess I have been real lucky to this point. I am by far not an expert, just someone who loves the hobby (addiction). If it wasn't for the expertise on this site I would not have been able to make it this far. Most local LFS's really just want to sell you something wether you need it or not, but to the folks that monitor this site and give feedback......
A REALLY BIG THANK YOU............
I will post more as my saga continues
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
OK I am really starting to get frustrated. After using Ammo-Lock yesterday the Ammo was back up to .1 this afternoon and he has lost even more color. I added some more Ammo-Lock and changed out the sponge filter with some that had plenty of BIO from my DT.
I think sepulatian was right in that I have lost the BIO in the tank. I feel like I am killing him slowly and I just feel so bad not only for myself but for him as well. So, where to go from here.
After 1 full week in hypo he still has at least 3 dots of ICH on him. I don't think it's a good idea to swap out more water. Sal has been maintained at 1.009
He has lost a lot more color and I do understand that it will come back if he survives but now he is not eating. Up until today he has been eating like a pig.
Not sure if Ammo-Lock affects nitrite readings but there is abosolutly none in the tank right now. PH was down to 8.0 so I added just a little buffer to bring it up.
Am I doing something wrong. I do know now that I started out swapping out too much water after the inital hypo and losing the rock didn't help. If putting the rock back in will help I really don't care about losing it. It was free anyway and can become filler. I have kept the rock in a bucket with a powerhead and heater and have done a few water changes but nothing else. It's been there for 9 days.
Please let me know if I am on the right track or if there is something drastic I need to do to try and keep this guy alive........
Thanks all.....
Cory
BTW: I have Cupamine and can start copper treatment if needed..... I just want this guy to LIVE................
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
LFS recommends adding some stress coat..... Any recommendations from this crowd??????? I trust you guys more than my LFS............ If I don't hear anything by about 9:00pm edt I guess I will have to take my chances........
Current readings..........
Ammo - 0
Nitrates - 0 (has to be from the Ammo-Lock)
Nitrites - 0 (has to be from the Ammo-Lock)
PH 8.2
Temp 78.8
Looks like he is slowly going down hill...........
 
peter1215

peter1215

Member
Hog , I really doubt any ammo is kiiling especially since you've been doing water changes and put in ammon-lock. Most likely its just the ich. I believe hypo works well when you catch it from the beginning. Once the fish is very infected you need something that will knock it out quicker like Cupramine. Though you only see a few specks on him , what about the ones you cant see that are on his gills ?? At this point the copper may or may not work b/c he may be to weak to withstand it . Ive also read that angels are one the fish that dont tolerat copper very well. Its a double edged sword... Its your call ... try to get a hold of Beth see what she woudl reccomend at this point b/c you dont have mcuh time . He probably has major gill damage from the ich and likely getting little oxygen.
 
hogcr8

hogcr8

Member
At this point he is slowly leaning to the side turning upside down and using the PVC to try and stay upright. Don't think he is going to make it through the night..... I hope he does. I had heard that about angels and coop so that is why I decided to try hypo. Hopefully he will still be swimming in the morning...... I will make a post either way. If there is any additional input that anyone has I will take time off of work in the morning to try anything right now.........
I tried to send an e-mail to Beth but no joy.... Hopefully she will read this thread and give me some input......
thanks all.........
 
nicetry

nicetry

Active Member
It dosn't sound good at this point, and not from lack of effort on your part. The fish may be compromised from secondary problems related to the parasite. In part the biofiltration was an issue and the prolonged presence of ammonia didn't help. It's also a young fish and maybe not strong enough to recover in spite of your best efforts. I wouldn't add the rock back as the hyposaline conditions will kill off any life on the rock, and this in turn will cause your ammonia to rise again. Do you have water moving in the tank at the surface? Make sure there is enough gas exchange for oxygenation. At this point, I'd refrain from doing any more water changes. Keep lights dim to minimize stress. Your parameters are not a problem now but monitor them as you have been. While angels are copper sensitive, it may be an option if the fish survives, and I've seen angels recover nicely in copper treatments.
Post back in the morning with an update. IMO there is a point of no return where further interventions are not worth the effort, but you may not be there yet.
 
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