plumbing into a crawl space question.

[blazehok68]

well, i am in the midst of buying a home and am looking at tank placement. i want a fish room behind the tank, but the layout of the house does not warrant that. so the next best thing i have is a room across the other side of the house where i have no use for, so i can make it a filtration room. so, that being said, i was thinking about plumbing down into the crawlspace, across the house, then up into the other room. it isnt a real long distance, maybe 20 feet or so, and i was planning on insulating the pipes.
question is, has anybody ever seen it done before this way, and if so, what are the common problems anyone forsees?

 

[al mc]

Both my reef systems are plumbed this way. Really no problems as long as you get a return pump that can supply enough 'head pressure' to keep proper water flow. Consider Sequence pumps.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
http:///forum/post/3041173
Both my reef systems are plumbed this way. Really no problems as long as you get a return pump that can supply enough 'head pressure' to keep proper water flow. Consider Sequence pumps.
+1
You'll want to upsize the plumbing to as to reduce the pressure needed to maintain flow. If your tank's returns take 3/4" pipe, for example, run 1" pipe from your fish room and reduce it at the tank. That'll help keeping things flowing easily.
Your drain lines should be BIG... not knowing your flow rate... I'd run 2" minimum.
Sequence would be THE pump to use. The low speed series (Dart, etc) are not suitable for this as they do not handle high head pressure well. Sequence makes pumps specifically for this purpose. The Reeflo series (Tarpon, Marlin, Wahoo) are outstanding pumps for this purpose, they are designed for running high flow rates through long runs of small pipe.
If not sequence, then Iwaki RLT series.

 

[blazehok68]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3041647
+1
You'll want to upsize the plumbing to as to reduce the pressure needed to maintain flow. If your tank's returns take 3/4" pipe, for example, run 1" pipe from your fish room and reduce it at the tank. That'll help keeping things flowing easily.
Your drain lines should be BIG... not knowing your flow rate... I'd run 2" minimum.
Sequence would be THE pump to use. The low speed series (Dart, etc) are not suitable for this as they do not handle high head pressure well. Sequence makes pumps specifically for this purpose. The Reeflo series (Tarpon, Marlin, Wahoo) are outstanding pumps for this purpose, they are designed for running high flow rates through long runs of small pipe.
If not sequence, then Iwaki RLT series.
2"? thats huge. right now i only have 1" coming out of the back of the tank right now going to my sump underneath the tank. i dont think my bulkheads can accept 2" pipe. can i just increase pipe size after it comes out of the back of the tank? oh yeah my tank is drilled in the back not the bottom. the bottom is tempered glass.

 

[al mc]

Originally Posted by BLAZEHOK68
http:///forum/post/3041737
2"? thats huge. right now i only have 1" coming out of the back of the tank right now going to my sump underneath the tank. i dont think my bulkheads can accept 2" pipe. can i just increase pipe size after it comes out of the back of the tank? oh yeah my tank is drilled in the back not the bottom. the bottom is tempered glass.
My returns on both reefs are 2.0". As SCSI noted, bigger is better and yes you can feed your 1" returns quickly into a 1.5 to 2" return line.

 

[scsinet]

Over the distance you are running, the larger pipe will just make things flow easier. As Al said, you'll come out with 1" and use reducing fittings to go up to 2" pipe right after it leaves the tank.
Then on the horizontal run, you'll want to slope the pipe downhill towards the sump slightly... about 1" every 5-8 feet or so, and be careful to support the pipe frequently to prevent bellies (sags) from forming under the weight of the water. Proper pitch will help eliminate this also.

 

[blazehok68]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3041898
Over the distance you are running, the larger pipe will just make things flow easier. As Al said, you'll come out with 1" and use reducing fittings to go up to 2" pipe right after it leaves the tank.
Then on the horizontal run, you'll want to slope the pipe downhill towards the sump slightly... about 1" every 5-8 feet or so, and be careful to support the pipe frequently to prevent bellies (sags) from forming under the weight of the water. Proper pitch will help eliminate this also.
Ok. So I understand that water runs downhill, but what about when I have to turn the pipe up 90 degrees to come up out of the crawl? I don't understand how I won't have backup issues.

 

[scsinet]

You shouldn't if your pipe is big enough.
I'm not sure I understand... starting at the tank, you'll come out of the back, go at a 90 ddegree angle to vertical, then drop straight down to another 90 to take you back to horizontal. Then you'll run horizontal to the sump, where you'll probably turn 90 degrees again and go down into the sump... right?
That shouldnt' back up.
I am envisioning something like the attached diagram. Notice that I included "T" fittings instead of 90s outside the tank and at the final turn down to the sump. These will allow air to enter the pipes and keep things "breathing." The disadvantage of those is that you cannot put a valve on the drains down by the sump (as some like to do for maintenance purposes) because the open T fitting below the waterline will flood. You could put a valve in the horizontal run because the T behind the tank can easily extend above the waterline, preventing a problem.

 

[blazehok68]

no no.....a little communication error. i was going to come out of the tank at a 90, down into the crawl, another 90 for the horizontal, rund the length of the house that i need to, then another 90 to go vertically UP out of the crawl space then up over the side of the sump. the part about going up is where i have questions about backups.
that being said, can i do this? will the overflow make the journey back up out of the crawl?

 

[blazehok68]

i am thinking that as long as the overflow pipe out of the crawl does not go any higher than the water level in my tank, it will work, but i dont know.

 

[spanko]

Tagging along to see how this develops.

 

[scsinet]

Oh my... well... it *might* work.
In theory, you're correct... as long as the sump is below the water level of the tank, you'll be fine.
If you think about it, the plumbing basically becomes a part of the sump, as the pipes will fill with water to an equal height with the sump's water level. Such an arrangement I've never seen tried, but I'd expect it would work if the pipes were set up properly.
As I said I've not seen it tried, but that wouldn't stop me from having a go at it. IMO you'll want to upsize the pipe at about the point where the water level of the sump would sit. So if the sump is sitting in a fish room and you determine that the water level would be about 10" off the FLOOR, you'd place a transition to a smaller pipe at about 14" off the floor behind the tank. See attached professional-looking diagram.
I'm not sure what pipe size to use here, but if you had (2) 1" drains from the tank, I'd use 3" pipe. Remember that the water is having to fight gravity at this point, so you want to ensure as much open room for the gentle "push" from the tank to the sump to occur as possible.

 

[mie]

That fish looks to big for that tank.

 

[stdreb27]

As long as you have an overflow that creates a lower limit on the water level on one or the other it doesn't really matter which tank is lower. Just make sure the overflow is on the tank with the higher water level...

 

[blazehok68]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3042240
Oh my... well... it *might* work.
In theory, you're correct... as long as the sump is below the water level of the tank, you'll be fine.
If you think about it, the plumbing basically becomes a part of the sump, as the pipes will fill with water to an equal height with the sump's water level. Such an arrangement I've never seen tried, but I'd expect it would work if the pipes were set up properly.
As I said I've not seen it tried, but that wouldn't stop me from having a go at it. IMO you'll want to upsize the pipe at about the point where the water level of the sump would sit. So if the sump is sitting in a fish room and you determine that the water level would be about 10" off the FLOOR, you'd place a transition to a smaller pipe at about 14" off the floor behind the tank. See attached professional-looking diagram.
I'm not sure what pipe size to use here, but if you had (2) 1" drains from the tank, I'd use 3" pipe. Remember that the water is having to fight gravity at this point, so you want to ensure as much open room for the gentle "push" from the tank to the sump to occur as possible.

now doing it that way, do you think it would make a suction going into the side of the sump rather than up and over the top? also, what if i just reduce the drains to 3 inches right out of the tank? you think that would create too much flow out of the tank or too much noise? maybe i will have to do an experiment with a 10 gallon first.

 

[scsinet]

Flow rate in overflows is dictated by the flow of water into them, which is in turn dictated by the return pump.
So in the end, the return pump sets the flow rate of the whole system.
Going up and over the top of the sump... I'm worried that what you'll have is a surging situation... once water starts to spill over the top, a siphon will pull the water down suddenly until enough air gurgles in to stop it... similar to a toilet flushing and will sound just as bad.

 

[blazehok68]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3042355
Flow rate in overflows is dictated by the flow of water into them, which is in turn dictated by the return pump.
So in the end, the return pump sets the flow rate of the whole system.
Going up and over the top of the sump... I'm worried that what you'll have is a surging situation... once water starts to spill over the top, a siphon will pull the water down suddenly until enough air gurgles in to stop it... similar to a toilet flushing and will sound just as bad.
even if i put a t on the 90 that comes up and over to add some air to it, kinda like a durso?

 

[scsinet]

even if you what? I don't know what your point is...
What I'm saying is that an overflow can't make "too much flow out of the tank" as you had commented. The water can only flow through at the rate that it overflows into the overflow, which is dictated by the rate water is introduced into the tank by the return pump.

 

[blazehok68]

sorry....with overflowing over the top of the sump. if i put a "T" on the elbow going overtop of the sump wall, i will still get the surging of water and the gurgling noise?