Protein Skimmer Discussion

[snakeblitz33]

Hey guys and gals,
I just wanted to open up a discussion on protein skimmers. Many people in this hobby use skimmers as a nutrient export. Skimmers remove organic and inorganic nitrate and phosphate as its primary function. They also remove some trace elements, and even some amount of ammonia and heavy metals and medications.
Protein skimmers have their place. Protein skimmers have been used on aquariums almost ever since foam fractination was discovered in the hobby and implimented for nutrient export. But why?
Why is it that protein skimmers are so widely used and implimented? Why do hobbyists insist on using protein skimmers? Why do experienced reef keepers use them?
For the last two years, I have gone skimmerless on all of my tanks. From shallow sandbeds to deep sandbeds to high and low fish loads, I have not had a protein skimmer. Though, I have done water changes, and in most cases have had refugiums. I have seen skimmers suck out copepods before!
Are protein skimmers a necessity in the hobby anymore? Are protein skimmers a must have in a setup, or just an option? I am starting to think this. Can someone help me understand why you would use a protein skimmer and what do you think it does to help the health of your tank?

 

[pbnj]

Less frequent water changes needed.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I argue that protein skimmers are infact bad for your tank. Contrary to popular belief, they do not add O2 to your system. Infact, they take away from dissolved DO. I can't post a link that I found because it's from another website.
Also, I don't like protein skimmers because they take away from the food supply of corals and filter feeding inverts. Fruthermore, they also strip the water of some trace elements and minerals that are highly beneficial to marine ecosystems. Too strong of a protein skimmer can infact be very bad for a system.
People recommend protein skimmers for sps dominated reef tanks and for very sensitive corals, however I don't feel like this is a necesity anymore. As long as you have a low bioload and enough filtration, combined with high flow rates and at least once a month water changes, I don't think the use of a protein skimmer is necessary.
I've ran a 55 gallon aquarium in my room for one year without any waterchanges. Infact, it was started with tap water. A DSB and water flow by two maxijet 1200 powerheads and two very small "power filters" was all that I used. No cyano, no hair algae, no problems. Infact, a neon green montipora cap grew from 4" wide to 20" wide in that tank - with no water changes. I had six fish in that tank.
The question may not be is it necessary - but in what case is a protein skimmer necessary? Does anyone want to chime in?

 

[mr_x]

the amount of trace elements a reasonable protein skimmer will remove from your tank is very small. nothing to worry about.
protein skimmers are not a necessity, but recommended because not everyone performs the proper husbandry to insure clean water. this is just another in the line of defence against a filthy tank.
also, more people than not, overload their tanks with livestock.
i can speak for myself-
i have alot of lps. i feed them multiple times per week. i also feed my fish daily. i change 50 gallons of water per week and my protein skimmer still pulls massive amounts of crap out of the system. in my case, it's a necessity.

 

[spanko]

Google,
eric borneman skimmate analysis
Go to the first result. An interesting read. No emphatic conclusion but all in all an interesting read.

 

[snakeblitz33]

The amount of trace element that is skimmed from the system is definately negligable. What I was aiming for was - in what case is a protein skimmer necessary - Mr. X has just said that on his system, since he feeds quite often has to have one.
In a case like Mr. X's, it's crucial to the survival and health of his tank.
I agree that it is just another line of defense against a filthy tank, although I have been reading on these forums and some people say that it is practially the be-all-end-all of filtration.
I had another live fish store owner come in my shop and talk with me one time. He said that he designed some 1500g+- shark tank and the only filtration on it was two industrial sized protein skimmers. Now, while this may have been good, I still see the need for mechanical, biological and some chemical filtration. Without adequate water changes, I don't feel like this system could biologically support itself.
Anyone else have examples?
Anyone else want to post their experiences with protein skimmers, why or why they do not use one, and in what case they use one?
I'm just interested in hearing different situations, not necessarily denouncing the use of a protein skimmer. As I said in my first post, protein skimmers have their place.

 

[nordy]

Snakeblitz, your post has got me thinking and that can be a dangerous thing.

Everytime I look at the skimmate I pour out of the collection cup I think that's why I am glad I have a skimmer, look at all that dark nasty crud that came out of my tank! I have advised people here on SWF.com that yeah, you should get a skimmer-once you see just what comes out of it, you will be glad you got one. Maybe it ain't always so if you have a tank with a small bioload, lots of LR, good flow, and adequate water changes. Not me though, I feed my corals a couple of times a week and even with my 20%/week water changes, I still like having a protein skimmer.
Considering the density of livestock in my tank (55 gal reef plus 4 fish) I have to think, what would become of the stuff I normally pull out of the tank? would it benefit any of my corals in any way? Could I run my tank w/o the skimmer but maybe do even more mater changes?

 

[keebler]

Don't forget that they do replicate a function of the ocean. They aren't necessary but in most cases they are a great investment.

 

[sueandherzoo]

I'll be following this thread with interest because as a newbie I, too, was/am confused by the real benefits of protein skimmers. When I first started back in August and was reading, reading, reading I kept hearing about protein skimmers and was totally confused as to how and why they worked. I don't normally utilize anything on faith alone - I like to know the reason and theory behind things first so I wasn't going to invest in one till I knew more about them. Then I ended up purchasing a used set up (impulse buy) which included a protein skimmer so I figured "what the heck". Now that I see the amount of stuff it collects I am convinced that I want one on all tanks and have purchased two more for my other tanks. I'm still not positive how much benefit they offer but I don't think I want to see what my tank would be like if I weren't pulling that dark green scum out of them. My theory now is that even though I don't know scientfically how well they work, I'm convinced they can't HURT and I want every advantage I can get in keeping a healthy tank.
Sue

 

[usirchchris]

I have had many a tank without a skimmer, and had no real issues. I run one on my aggressive tank because of the excess bio-load of two puffers and a trigger with no clean up crew. I have one on my 125 peaceful tank, because I happen to have an extra, but do not think they are absolutely necessary by any means from my experience. I currently have a 75 gallon with LR and a crappy canister as the only filter. Does good enough...just don't like rinsing the filter pads every few days.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Just an interesting fun fact:
At one time, on one forum, it was suggested that there was an endless supply of coral food that you could feed. It was very simple - dilute your skimmate and re-feed it. I do not suggest this, however. When skimmate is collected in the cup, the plankton, beneficial algaes and even generations of copepods and other crustaceans, including perhaps egg sacs for second generations. They're all... DEAD. No sense in feeding dead material, when it was actually alive in your system to begin with.
I absolutely agree that there should be protein skimmers on fish only with live rock tanks or just fish only tanks. There should also be protein skimmers on medium to heavy bioloads that are reef tanks. However, I personally do not agree with protein skimmers that pull out way too much skimmate for medium to low bioloads.
I do not see that you should even increase water changes at all if you do go skimmerless. If you see something that is off, yes, you need to do a water change, but if there's nothing wrong - don't do it!
I have a friend who has had a 100 gallon long that is growing nepthia and frogspawn like crazy - frags large chuncks of it three times a year - BUT - He only does a water change once a year. I asked him one time if he has ever tested alkalinity? He said "What's that?"

 

[snakeblitz33]

Originally Posted by Keebler
http:///forum/post/2888756
Don't forget that they do replicate a function of the ocean. They aren't necessary but in most cases they are a great investment.
The natural action of the ocean - Are you talking about the white foam created by white capping of waves? Interestingly enough, most of that which is washed up on shore is also filtered through a deep sandbed and back to the sea.
I don't think they are necessary for at least the first six months on a new tank with a medium to heavy bioload. Of course, if you don't keep up with once a month water changes on a tank such as this, you will have problems. Also, you will have problems if you add too much light to this type of system.
Also, you are right - they aren't necessary, but in most cases (where people stock too much fish) they are a great investment.
The funny thing is that we stock our tanks too much. There wouldn't be but one fish in 10,000 gallons of water in the ocean and we stock 12 medium sized fish in 100 gallons of water for our aquariums.

 

[ilovemytank]

I have what is considered a very heavy stock load. I wouldn't dare go without one due to this fact. IN my opinion; Always have the biggest badest filteration system, include regular water changes and maintenance, plan out your stock list and enjoy ! Thats just me though.

 

[meowzer]

I got one cause everyone said to...LOL..and like someone else said, after seeing and smelling the nasty stuff in the cup, I wouldn't want to be without one.

 

[nordy]

Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
http:///forum/post/2889034
Also, you are right - they aren't necessary, but in most cases (where people stock too much fish) they are a great investment.
The funny thing is that we stock our tanks too much. There wouldn't be but one fish in 10,000 gallons of water in the ocean and we stock 12 medium sized fish in 100 gallons of water for our aquariums.

This is the heart of the issue-our tanks, even lightly stocked ones, still have a much heavier load than an equivalent amount of the ocean which is why I just feel more comfortable running a skimmer, even it may be depleting the tank water of some good stuff as it pulls the nasty DOC's out of the tank. I would like to see a long term comparison test of 2 tanks as identicle as possible, except that only one had a skimmer. Too many variables I think for that to really work though.

 

[oceansidefish]

I have seen many wonderfull tanks without skimmers. However I think that there is a tendency to buy skimmers that are much to large for their tanks. There seems to have been a general consensus for a long time that a skimmer rated for double your tank size is the way to go. From what I have seen, this tends to produce more bad than good. Personally I belive that one GOOD skimmer rated for your tank size is the way to go. The best thing for a tank though is flow.

 

[mr_x]

Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
http:///forum/post/2889024
However, I personally do not agree with protein skimmers that pull out way too much skimmate for medium to low bioloads.

if it's a light bio load, it won't be pulling out too much skimmate. it can only pull what's put in. and that person with the light bio load, is putting too much nutrients in.
if you don't believe you need a skimmer, and you put one on your tank, and it pulls an inch of skimmate overnight, you DO need a skimmer, you just don't know it.

 

[robertmathern]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2889150
if it's a light bio load, it won't be pulling out too much skimmate. it can only pull what's put in. and that person with the light bio load, is putting too much nutrients in.
if you don't believe you need a skimmer, and you put one on your tank, and it pulls an inch of skimmate overnight, you DO need a skimmer, you just don't know it.
Thanks X I have been wandering this. I finally got my skimmer working ok. I have no real bio load so I might get a inch every 3 days maybe. Depends on when I feed though. But I have been wandering if it is the skimmer or the bio load. After this I think both. Problem solved save the bio load and replace the skimmer. Best thing I have come up with yet. And I did it on my own.

 

[doggiepuffer]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2888484
the amount of trace elements a reasonable protein skimmer will remove from your tank is very small. nothing to worry about.
protein skimmers are not a necessity, but recommended because not everyone performs the proper husbandry to insure clean water. this is just another in the line of defence against a filthy tank.
also, more people than not, overload their tanks with livestock.
i can speak for myself-
i have alot of lps. i feed them multiple times per week. i also feed my fish daily. i change 50 gallons of water per week and my protein skimmer still pulls massive amounts of crap out of the system. in my case, it's a necessity.
Overloading in the hobby??? Surely Not

"Your honor, I plead quilty"

 

[rotarymagic]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2889150
if it's a light bio load, it won't be pulling out too much skimmate. it can only pull what's put in. and that person with the light bio load, is putting too much nutrients in.
if you don't believe you need a skimmer, and you put one on your tank, and it pulls an inch of skimmate overnight, you DO need a skimmer, you just don't know it.
I disagree there.. just because you have lots of dissolved organics in a tank doesn't mean you need a skimmer.. you just don't want lots of dissolved inorganics (the testable nitrates and phosphates.)
The only thing a skimmer is good for IMO is a tank with too many fish and not enough rock lol..
I'm a turf scrubber cult member though... every tank should have one..they pull excess heavy metals, export inorganics, and keep oxygenation high (also works for preventing pH swings when running while the display tank light is off.) Chaeto and caluerpa are obsolete and definitely not necessary for breeding pods.