Protein skimmer vs. fuge, Literally

J

jstdv8

Guest
I'll go along with that :) I always heard that 0 was the objective. Except with Xenia, which actually grew fantastic in my tank until i had a heater malfunction wipe them out.
It seems to me that if you've got these little particles left over from food floating around that they will be constantly letting off more phos and trates. I don't see how you could ever truely reach zero even though the test kit says 0.
I guess I've never heard of someone trying to get phos in their tank, only the other way around.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Soft coral tanks benefit from having nitrate around 10ppm and phosphate at about .5 or less. SPS tanks need really clean water - yes. But, if you strip phosphate out of the water column and go below 0.03ppm then it causes many SPS tanks to crash... There are a few examples on the bigger forum that I can think of. Also, I think I could find a reference in Sprungs Vol. 1 of The Reef Aquarium. All natural reefs do have some phosphates and nitrates present in the water. In our closed systems, we do have the ability to strip the water... so a delicate balance must be met.
Your test kit is not reading accurately. If you are using API test kits, you can only assume that your phosphate is 0, when it is more accurately less than 0.09ppm. A Hanna phosphate checker is a lot more accurate - which is what most serious SPS keepers use to make sure their phosphates don't drop below 0.03ppm.
Protein skimmer do remove a lot of waste from the system - lost of dissolved organic compounds - and your right, it doesn't catch everything all the time - that's one of the reasons why a protein skimmer is good. Also, some people, like me, put their protein skimmers on day/night cycles - so that it doesn't run during the day but turns on at night. This allows it to only be half as efficient as it would be - therefore leaving some food in the water for the corals.
The only way you can over-skim a tank is if you don't feed your fish/corals enough food to sustain them (with a properly paired skimmer). This is opposite of algae scrubbers where the more you feed, the more efficient it is. So, I urge caution when using EITHER piece of equipment.
This is also one of the reasons that I am (leaning to now) going back to using macroalgae instead of a scrubber - since scrubbers will out compete macroalgaes even, what do you think it is also outcompeteing? Corals! macroalgae doesn't grow as quickly as hair algae - so it does leave some amount of phosphate in the water for corals (SPS mainly is what I am thinking of) to thrive.
In tanks that you want a fair amount of nitrate and phosphate, such as Soft coral tanks / mixed LPS/soft tanks then you do want some phosphate and nitrate to feed your corals. Careful, however, because if nitrates or phosphates go too high, your calcium and alkalinity will crash in a reef tank - because the rapid growth and uptake from your LPS and SPS corals. (reference if you want it.)
I find that it is best to find a balance - and to also take notes on your system so that you know what you have done to it and what is working... and when something happens you can revert back to a time when things were going well.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
There is a delicate balance in our aquatic ecosystems that we have to maintain... You know this....
Ca, alk, mg, trace elements have to be stable... temp and salinity has to be stable... nitrates and phosphates have to be kept in check. Our equipment should reflect what our aquariums require to run. For example, an SPS dominated reef tank's equipment looks entirely different from a soft coral reef tank. There is no one "cure all" when it comes to filtration (IE the scrubber.) Doing research helps an aquarist understand what his/her ultimate goals for the system should be.
Questions for you...
1. Do you believe the use of a scrubber eliminates the need for water changes?
2. Do you feel like a scrubber should be used on every tank, regardless of the tanks inhabitants?
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500487
There is a delicate balance in our aquatic ecosystems that we have to maintain... You know this....
Ca, alk, mg, trace elements have to be stable... temp and salinity has to be stable... nitrates and phosphates have to be kept in check. Our equipment should reflect what our aquariums require to run. For example, an SPS dominated reef tank's equipment looks entirely different from a soft coral reef tank. There is no one "cure all" when it comes to filtration (IE the scrubber.) Doing research helps an aquarist understand what his/her ultimate goals for the system should be.
Questions for you...
1. Do you believe the use of a scrubber eliminates the need for water changes?
2. Do you feel like a scrubber should be used on every tank, regardless of the tanks inhabitants?
not directed to me.
But yes to both.
water changes alone will never maintain system parameters. Balancing and stabilizing the system with algae is by far the best way to do that.
Sure there is more involved like maintaining calcium carbonate and magnesium, but water changes will never do that and the stability of a tank balanced out with algae beats anything going.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500487
There is a delicate balance in our aquatic ecosystems that we have to maintain... You know this....
Ca, alk, mg, trace elements have to be stable... temp and salinity has to be stable... nitrates and phosphates have to be kept in check. Our equipment should reflect what our aquariums require to run. For example, an SPS dominated reef tank's equipment looks entirely different from a soft coral reef tank. There is no one "cure all" when it comes to filtration (IE the scrubber.) Doing research helps an aquarist understand what his/her ultimate goals for the system should be.
Questions for you...
1. Do you believe the use of a scrubber eliminates the need for water changes?
2. Do you feel like a scrubber should be used on every tank, regardless of the tanks inhabitants?
I'm certainly not as into this as you are, but I've seen a tank that's run exclusively on a scrubber and hasn't had a water change since 2008, the corals are mostly SPS and LPS and the growth is good, the coralline algae growth is very thick (i don't know if that's good or bad, i have very little personally, but my calcium is generally a little lower than most because i don't dose and I've become lax on water changes a bit more in the past year. All the guy does is dose. so after 4 years of sucess i could draw the conclusion that scrubber and dosing could take the place of water changes.
And #2, I've never personally seen a tank that has run so low on nitrate and phosphate that the corals died. I've heard of this happening with a reactor that was used too much, but that's an entirely different deal because they are using a skimmer and therefor probably not feeding as much, lack of food in the system could cause lack of phos I suppose, as well as a lack of coral food perhaps.
IMO the only systems that may not benefit from a scrubber would be ones that have huge tanks (like 400+ gallons) because the size of the screen would ahve to be enormous, and you'd have to have a place to put it and a way to clean it once a week.
Seems that if you really had to dose phos that would be far easier to cure than removing it in the first place which most people struggle with.
Again, i'm no guru, just going by my own personal experiences in the past 3 years with both a skimmer and a scrubber (and cheato) and what ive seen from other peoples tanks that I've seen using it, as well as the massive amount of posts we see every year concerning a persons inability to get phos down to a manageable level.
Another thing i have noticed that you may find interesting. I've been playing with my scrubber for a while now, purposely messing up the "optimization"
Like not cleaning the screen and see what happens (water yellows a bit after a couple months, and the pods eat holes in your algae mat and you start growing black slimy stuff more than the pretty green stuff.
I cut way back on feeding the tank for 4 months. about 1 cube every 3-4 days (I only have 3 fish, and they showed no signs of starvation) The screen was pretty much self regulating. The screen just didn't grow in very full anymore, but it still filtered out enough to keep the phos and trates undetectable on my API kits.
I also tried letting the lights go older without replacing, got to about 6 months and the growth on the screen really decreased. still no spikes because once the screen got bad i fixed it and the next week had great growth again.
Just some things I noticed while goofing around with it :)
Right now I'm back to a schedule of water change every week 10%, lights every 3 months, and 3-4 cubes every day or other day
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500495
I'm certainly not as into this as you are,
I have many other things I am interested in. lol I just enjoy Biology. but I've seen a tank that's run exclusively on a scrubber and hasn't had a water change since 2008, the corals are mostly SPS and LPS and the growth is good, the coralline algae growth is very thick I think I know the tank of which you speak. But, I can counter it with ones that don't have anything at all, too. (i don't know if that's good or bad, i have very little personally, but my calcium is generally a little lower than most because i don't dose and I've become lax on water changes a bit more in the past year. All the guy does is dose. so after 4 years of sucess i could draw the conclusion that scrubber and dosing could take the place of water changes. I disagree, for the simple fact of ionic balances.... without water changes sodium decreases and chloride increases, throwing the tank off balance. Eventually it will crash. Name one long term saltwater tank that has gone 20 years without a water change.
And #2, I've never personally seen a tank that has run so low on nitrate and phosphate that the corals died. May I direct you to the SPS forum on RC? That's one of the first things many people look for - is too low of nutrient levels. I've heard of this happening with a reactor that was used too much, but that's an entirely different deal because they are using a skimmer and therefor probably not feeding as much, lack of food in the system could cause lack of phos I suppose, as well as a lack of coral food perhaps. I try to find a balance, not a magical formula.
IMO the only systems that may not benefit from a scrubber would be ones that have huge tanks (like 400+ gallons) because the size of the screen would ahve to be enormous, and you'd have to have a place to put it and a way to clean it once a week. It's easy to make a scrubber for a 400g tank, and in fact, I can probably show you one built into a tote... used to run an SPS dominated reef tank. But the tank crashed later on.
Seems that if you really had to dose phos that would be far easier to cure than removing it in the first place which most people struggle with.
Again, i'm no guru, just going by my own personal experiences in the past 3 years with both a skimmer and a scrubber (and cheato) and what ive seen from other peoples tanks that I've seen using it, as well as the massive amount of posts we see every year concerning a persons inability to get phos down to a manageable level.
Another thing i have noticed that you may find interesting. I've been playing with my scrubber for a while now, purposely messing up the "optimization"
Like not cleaning the screen and see what happens (water yellows a bit after a couple months, and the pods eat holes in your algae mat and you start growing black slimy stuff more than the pretty green stuff.
/>I cut way back on feeding the tank for 4 months. about 1 cube every 3-4 days (I only have 3 fish, and they showed no signs of starvation) The screen was pretty much self regulating. The screen just didn't grow in very full anymore, but it still filtered out enough to keep the phos and trates undetectable on my API kits.
I also tried letting the lights go older without replacing, got to about 6 months and the growth on the screen really decreased. still no spikes because once the screen got bad i fixed it and the next week had great growth again.
Just some things I noticed while goofing around with it :)
Right now I'm back to a schedule of water change every week 10%, lights every 3 months, and 3-4 cubes every day or other day
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
LOL, I had a hard time coming up with one that lasted since 2008. 20 years??
The technology wasn't even there 20 years ago to know the things we know now. And cleanable turf scrubbers hadn't been invented yet.
I'm not saying its a magical cure. The question was skimmer vs macro algae. I don't think anyone would call a skimmer a magical cure or anything for that matter.
I'm not big on lack of water changes either, because I don't like to dose and I actually like working on my tank when I can.
Here is a link to Santamonicas tank. his is the one I was referring to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl8FIQAxr0





 
farsight32

farsight32

Member
Dang, ya'll went wild with this. I love it. If only I could just stop going to class and work. Learning this stuff is infinitely more fun, IMO.
I don't think I will be upgrading in the near future. I actually have quite a bit of hair algae in my sump. I have an angled baffle that water flows over, and it is covered in hair algae. You guys also mentioned how lighting makes the scrubber more efficient. I have a clip on LED on the side, and an incandescent bulb above the tank. Is it possible I am kind of running a scrubber, since I have hair algae?
I am not too worried about it right now though. I am lightly stocked, and I just tested zeros across the board for bad substances.
Since I am only trying to keep easy items right now, no SPS, do I need to be overly concerned about the bleaching and death that comes from too little phosphates and nitrates? Also, I think my homemade skimmer could be much better, anyone know where I can find plans to make a pretty good one myself? Also, anyone know where I could find plans to make a good scrubber, my brother is about to build his own stand and sump, and he wants to try one to compare it to my refugium.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/388857/snakes-method-for-building-an-algae-scrubber
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/388858/snakes-method-for-algae-scrubber-basics
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/388488/progress-shots-of-110g-show-tank
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by farsight32 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500556
Dang, ya'll went wild with this. I love it. If only I could just stop going to class and work. Learning this stuff is infinitely more fun, IMO.
I don't think I will be upgrading in the near future. I actually have quite a bit of hair algae in my sump. I have an angled baffle that water flows over, and it is covered in hair algae. You guys also mentioned how lighting makes the scrubber more efficient. I have a clip on LED on the side, and an incandescent bulb above the tank. Is it possible I am kind of running a scrubber, since I have hair algae?
I am not too worried about it right now though. I am lightly stocked, and I just tested zeros across the board for bad substances.
Since I am only trying to keep easy items right now, no SPS, do I need to be overly concerned about the bleaching and death that comes from too little phosphates and nitrates? Also, I think my homemade skimmer could be much better, anyone know where I can find plans to make a pretty good one myself? Also, anyone know where I could find plans to make a good scrubber, my brother is about to build his own stand and sump, and he wants to try one to compare it to my refugium.
Not to be a kill joy, but homemade skimmers usually aren't real efficient IMO.....There are plans out there, but it's a bit more than some plastic, PVC or what not and a pump......
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
By the time you build a home made skimmer... with a decent pump.... you are paying close to what you would a decent skimmer online.
 
farsight32

farsight32

Member
Hm. While it is a little sad to hear it is more expensive, I still like building one myself. I find that when you make something yourself you get a much better understanding of how it works. I know I can't come close to something I buy online, but I think it would be fun. I don't need a killer skimmer at this moment in time, just a little project to tinker with.
But since you mention buying a skimmer online, what is a good model you guys would suggest? I have about 45 gallons of water in my system.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Snake, good stuff in those links you posted.
I've read in your posts and other places online that the scrubber helps with cyano. I haven't had the same results. When my t5s were getting old the cyano was ridiculous.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by farsight32 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500717
Hm. While it is a little sad to hear it is more expensive, I still like building one myself. I find that when you make something yourself you get a much better understanding of how it works. I know I can't come close to something I buy online, but I think it would be fun. I don't need a killer skimmer at this moment in time, just a little project to tinker with.
But since you mention buying a skimmer online, what is a good model you guys would suggest? I have about 45 gallons of water in my system.
check out avast marine kit. then again, depends on yoursize tank.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
I've got about 75 into mine from scratch. thats pump, screen, and tubing.
The pump is really where the money is. The tubing and screen will cost you less than 10 bucks most likely
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Some people use their overflow to supply their screen so that would really cut down on the cost.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393405/protein-skimmer-vs-fuge-literally/20#post_3500722
it does.
you just feed more than your filtration can handle. check your top off water.
I don't have a problem anymore. I did when my lights were old. switched them out this year. no more problem.
Scrubber was up and running the whole time.
My point was that I don't think the scrubber can do much about it. Maybe a little, I dunno, but if the lights are the problem like mine were, it didn't seem to make any difference..
 
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