Puffer Shakes

[thezucks]

Hi, :help:
Just when I got to feeling I was learning the ropes everything started crashing!
I have a 120 Gallon fish only tank set up with 2 large cascade filters 1 power head crushed coral (boy I wish I new then about live sand) and just head lights no special power compacts. I have just this week added a UV sterilizer. I am constantly running to LFS to test water it's always been GOOD with light nitrate and nitrate (I was always treating that with Nitormax, Marine-max and liquid gravel) I have bio set up and detox2. In the tank I HAD 1 damsel left lunare wrasse, porkey puff, dog face puff, royal gama, lemon peal angel fish, hermit crabs and fighting conch (now in my 24 gallon because of copper) naso tang, powerbrown tang and Bicolor Beliny, 2 pj angels.

All I have left is my Bicolor Beliny, damsel, Porkey Puff, Lemon Peal Angelfish and 2 pj angels. The Tangs both died with in 2 weeks of acclimation (not sure why). Lunare wrasse was all brownish and we hospitalized him to late. Royal gama died about the same time for no known reason. Both deaths were just after the hositalization and replacement of the leamon peal angel from red spot treatment (used mycelon 2) totaly cured. Everything in my tank was looking droopy about 4 weeks ago.
This brings me to the real question we noticed our dog face puffer doing seisure like movements AGAIN so we tested water it was perfect. AGAIN we saw the shakes and realized he wasn't eatting the last 2-3 days so LFS felt it was parasites and suggested a freshwater dip. We dipped for 2.5 min as recomended and place him back in the tank using plastic tubs (not a net) to move him. After a few days we were still seeing the shaking and he wasn't active so the LFS suggested copper. I was stalling on it and 5 days after the dip our dogface puffed (for the first time) he stayed puffed for 3 days and finally died. During this time I was on the phone with LFS. They prepared me for the enevidable made suggestions that he could have tried to eat a shell from a hermit and it wouldn't pass or he puffed and didn't know how to unpuff. They suggested taking him out of the water to shock him into unpuffing we tried that on day one. NOTHING HELPED. I checked this site and couldn't find anything. That fish is gone now but I still need help.
We have taken out all inverts added the UV and copper water test was perfect. It's been two weeks and during this time I have seen our porkey puff have the shakes a number of times. Does anyone know what this is? Will the copper help? Is there somthing else to suggest?
Thanks for anything! :happyfish :help:

 

[phixer]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I would contact the marine biology Dept of a coastal university. You may receive a lot of speculation unless you speak directly to a professional experienced in icktheology. I have heard of Puffers inflating and then not being able to deflate. Ive personally emailed the folks at www.wetwebmedia.com and received good advice from Bob Fenner before.

 

[seannmelly]

for 1 you never take a puffer out of the water expecially when hes puffed up

 

[boalgf]

I think his shaking is the least of your worries, though it could be from a copper overdose. How long have you had your tank up? Just because the water parameters are good doesn't mean you can add 11 (dear god) fish to the tank. Tanks take time to mature. In order to have tangs and angels you should have waited at least 6 months. To have as many fish as you've listed would have taken over a year to stock if done properly.
You said he's not eating. Is that still the case? Stop dipping him and no leaving him out of water. If he inflates with air he can die almost automatically. It might just be that he has ich or a skin disease that maybe you don't see. I recommend you easing up on the dosing of the tank with all those chemicals (Nitormax, Marine-max, liquid gravel, copper). Honestly, if you do it right you don't need any of this. With a fish only tank, the only chemical I'd have around is some Amquel+ or a similar ammonia neutralizing med. This would be used only in emergencies though.

 

[thezucks]

Thank you for your responces. I'm sure were all here to support one and other and learn from mistakes. So please fully read before posting. The first 2 months the only items in my tank were 6 damsels. The next 4 I had 1 damsel, hermits, 2 puffers and a wrasse. Angels and Tangs were not added until the 6th month point.
My Dog face puffer is now dead, as of 2 weeks ago. In addition he was only taken out of the water after 2 days of sideways puffing and getting pushed around by current. He was limp and barly "breathing" the LFS suggested trying a second or 2 of shocking him as a last attempt. He still lived 12 hours after.
Copper was NOT added until after he died. It was added because our OTHER Porkey Puffer began shaking. Maybe my letter was to in depth. If anyone has suggestions on what is causing his shaking I would appreciate it.

 

[unleashed]

the shaking was most likely caused by paresites.which in turn creates stress and then creates puffing ,over inflating can prove to be fatal for pufferfish and they puff up when stress or endangered.its kind of a catch 22 with his own defence mechenism. sorry for your losses

 

[titan]

You have no mention of skimming the tank with that huge bio-load? One power head is not gonna cut it; I would say to have 4-5 MJ 1200 to keep the fish waste flowin, not to mention feeding time alot of sparse food probably drops dead into the rockwork. If possible remove the CC and put in a max. 1" SB using aragonite. Test your PH, it could be low stressing your fish if not for high nitrates. In your marine tank you should have zero nitrite!

 

[boalgf]

When that many fish are dying, you need to look at the bigger picture. If you say your tank has been up and running for over 6 months then fine, however don't say "read before posting" since you didn't make mention of your tank maturity. It does sound like you added too many fish too fast though. Which is why I brought it up. I still think you are overusing chemicals, which could be the cause. You've listed like 5 or more chemicals. What all have you put in your tank so far?
You said you check the water with the LFS, what were your nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, and PH readings? Also what is your tank salinity? Do you use RO water?
You should try quarantining the puffer (is the porc still alive)? Keep your QT tank completely clean of all chemicals. Don't put any substrate and only minimal decoratins for the fish to hide behind. Check to see if the fish in your QT tank survives and the fish in your tank keep dropping off.
I also agree with titan. You should have a large skimmer and lose the crushed coral. Don't get frustrated from our responses if we don't specifically talk about the puffer. It might seem like we are talking about everything but the point, that's not the case though. Your problem could be caused by many things and we are trying to help you find the reason.

 

[thezucks]

Thank you for showing me there might be a bigger pic.
The chemicals I have put in my main tank since the begining are
Normal additions:
Marine care plus (water softner and conditioner) when I add water
Nitromax (bio booster), 1-2 times a week
Marine Max (the vitimans) 1-2 times a week
Liquid gravel (helps breakdown the junk left in the crused coral) 1-2 times a week
Chemicals to Fix problems:
Melafix - 2 months ago we added a week of melafix
Copper - Two weeks ago after all these deaths.
The Melafix was added because of the red spots on the lemon peal angel and the "concern" over the wrasse. When all my fish became sluggish I placed the angel in QT hand used marycen 2 he was clear in a week. (he is my healithest fish)
There are no current traces of ammonia, nitrite or nitrates. In the past

 

[thezucks]

sorry i hit enter.
In the past... my nitrite's, have been slightly elevated, a vague purplish color. But I was never given a numbered measure. Recomendation was to add more marine care, nitromax and liquid gravel. It was suggested to do water changes and gravel swishing (moving it around to remove JUNK) as well as wishing of chargers in tank water (not in tank) every 2 weeks because the puffers were making a mess and causing the elevation.
I do not have RO water and the salinity WAS kept between 1.021 and 1.022 but I was recomended 2 weeks ago to keep it between 1.019 and 1.020. Also my heat is fluxuating durring the day between 76 and 78.
I just watched my lemon peal angel go "kiss" my puffer and he started doing the shakes again he didn't stop even when he was swimming away from angel.
I was explained by the LFS that I don't need a skimmer because it's a marine only tank. Also do you think the CC is causing the issues?
I only have 4 fish left in my main tank a 6 inch puffer, 1 1/2 inch damsel, 3 inch leamon peal angel and a small bicolor belini. Should I just make this into a hospital by taking out the CC?
My understanding is that the "chemicals" I use are assisting to keep my nitrate, nitrites and ammonia levels perfect. Are they doing something else bad?

 

[seannmelly]

um yea deff a skimmer

 

[titan]

Salinity fluctuation is more a concern rather a specific number, but not too low or high. I've always kept mine at an SG of 1.023, and try not to stray too far from that. Never add chemicals if you don't have too, there no such thing in the ocean as in your tank. Even if one of my fish have suffered an abrasion from one of my Triggerfish I'll moniter it and see how it's healing rather than treating with melafix at the first sign of an injury. the natural if it works is the best way. In an aged fish only tank low to mid level nitrates are not an issue, introducing a new fish after fish into a tank with higher trates is looking for trouble. Try to remove your sickest fish(s) into QT and ensure your water params are up to snuff, if need be treat for ick, feed garlic enriched foods and hope for the best. Do a massive water change in your display, re-test levels to see where your standing. Pick up a much need skimmer x2 rated for your tank volume. Your LFS are they offering any help? See if they'll take some of your fish temporarily to hospitalize if not give them back. I'm sure if they respect your business they accomodate you.

 

[boalgf]

The biggest problem with adding all those chemicals is that they throw off your test readings. So even though your readings look right, they could be totally off. Those chemicals should be used as a last resort, not as regular maintenance.
Crushed coral traps nitrates and waste. That's why we avoid it.
Your LFS sounds as wrong as most LFS workers do. Skimmers are more important on fish only tanks than reefs.
Dropping your salinity to 1.019 is a bad idea. It's not a healthy level and it doesn't lower it enough to help with ich.

 

[thezucks]

I was adding chemicals to take out all the minor levels.
So I'm going to look into costs for a skimmer.
About the chemicals though when I do a water change or add fish (which is not happening for at least a month) what do I add?
Right now my tank is full of copper but I'm also running the carbon because it hasn't lowered the copper level in 2 weeks.
Before posting yesterday I replenished my water levels they were down about 15% of the tank. I only added water conditioners and Nitromax.
We just did a major water change 4 weeks ago about 25%.
What do you mean garlic enriched foods? All I've been feeding is algee sheets and Frozen Krill.
My LFS will accept the fish back (no refund) but they will not hold them for me. Also my husband is VERY attached to this porkey puffer but obviously will not see him die.

 

[titan]

With no skimmer and your big bio-load I suggest weekly water changes, and big ones. I change 20GL per week, siphon the SB, blow off LR with a turkey baster, and I'm running 4x water volume rated filtration. It's critical to top-off your evaporated water, as the old saying goes don't add salt unless salt is removed! Evaporated water raises SG, as the salt doesn't evaporate! Soak your food in garlic, as it aids in raiseing a fishes immunity which in turn can aid in fending off a disease. I have a gravy boat I swiped from my wife, I'll fill it with some tank water and dice a few garlic cloves into it. When I feed I'll pour a little into a shot glass, and de-thaw their food in it. You can buy liquified garlic products, but I choose the real skanky stuff. By returning your sick fish they can heal by just being in a tank with pristine conditions with out all sorts off chemicals/treatments..etc.

 

[boalgf]

When you do a water change or add fish, you shouldn't need chemicals. With a water change you need to add salt and that's about it. If you QT your fish, just treat them for whatever ails them in the QT tank. Dosing the tank with any med (even copper) is a bad idea.
At this point, you really have only 2 choices. Wait it out and do many water changes, or get rid of your fish. I think if you stop adding chemicals and do some heavy water changes (25% weekly) for a month or so it will all work out. Everything titan said about cleaning off your live rock (or tank decorations) and other maintenance is a good idea. Garlic is also a great idea. I use galric guard by seachem.
Your puffer might be malnourished if all you are feeding it is krill. Try soaking his food in Zoe or another nutrient enhancer and get him some silversides, shrimp, crab, clams, or any other meaty food to add to his diet. Porc Puffers are very hardy, hopefully he will pull through.
Here is my puffer, wishing your puffer the best.

 

[thezucks]

My whole understanding of tanks is changing.
So I don't need water conditioner or stress relief if i use tap water? JUST SALT NOTHING ELSE?
I should buy a skimmer. I saw a Pirzm Pro Delux up to 300 gallons for $150 or a Coralife Needle Wheel up to 220 for $169 which is better?
I have no live rock but we cleaned off SB and rocks and tubing from filters lastnight.
So weekly 20% or so water changes and soak food in Garlic, can they eat the Garlic?
The Frozen 100% Garlic cubes from Trader Joe's are GREAT I'll use them.
In essence your saying Keep the tank CLEAN and the levels will be fine?
Why was my LFS telling me to buy the nitro max and marine care plus and marine max?

 

[zoejeun]

I will need a really good skimmer when i set up my tank because I want both a dwarf lion and a puffer. I have a 38 g. What do you guys recommend?

 

[boalgf]

Your LFS told you to buy those chemicals because he either didn't know better or he wanted to sell you stuff. A good skimmer is the AquaC remora pro. You can get them for the same price as the others you saw used.
Just to clarify, RO is the best water for your tank. You can buy a good RO unit on the auction site for around $70. If you do use tap water, test it first to see if it has any traces of ammonia.
Keep your tank clean, change the water, and get plenty of water movement using powerheads to keep any waste from settling. I have a fish only 125 and I've gotten to the point where I only need to do water changes once every 4 months or so and I don't use any chemicals. I have a sump and bio balls though, since I don't really like canister filters.

 

[readster]

Bob Fenner is the man, great, great guy. He knows more about fish, than everybody on this board combined.