QT tank questions

florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
There shouldnt be any cycle when using existing rock since most of the bacteria exists on surfaces. Sure theres no bacteria on the tank and filters, but there should be plenty on the porous rock.
This is a complete assumption. Bacteria colonization initially takes place in areas that receive a constant supply of nutrient rich water. (Your mechanical filter media and areas that are in the direct path of power heads). Your live rock may in fact not arbor any colonization of nitrifying bacteria at all especially in a new tank. Adding live rock to a QT is and then adding a fish is just rolling the dice that you in fact can handle the bio load. Stick with established practices and start your QT from scratch. Seed it with some degrading organics what for a cycle and go from there. While you are waiting get a good book on marine aquarium keeping.
 
prime311

prime311

Active Member
That works out great Joe when you need to move a sick fish to QT and don't have time to wait for a cycle. /sarcasm off
Maybe its worked for me because the pieces of rock I move to qt are in front of powerheads, thats good to know but get off your high horse about 'proper aquarium practices'. I've got a book that talks all about the wonders of undergravel filters too. Things change. Be smart and use what works.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/3011377
That works out great Joe when you need to move a sick fish to QT and don't have time to wait for a cycle. /sarcasm off
Maybe its worked for me because the pieces of rock I move to qt are in front of powerheads, thats good to know but get off your high horse about 'proper aquarium practices'. I've got a book that talks all about the wonders of undergravel filters too. Things change. Be smart and use what works.
No sarcasm intended you are just making an assumption when you say that adding live rock to a tank will add or even perpetuate nitrifying bacteria going on that assumption can tend to steer the hobbyist not to look to other methods of keeping the sick fish alive while the tank cycles.
And lets assume your live rock is a platform for nitrification and you add it to your QT/HT and your fish in fact shows signs of parasitic infestation. What happens to your live rock when you treat it?
Under gravel filters have in fact lead to the development of plenum use in refugiums so I don t understand your reference please explain while I cool my horse down
 
prime311

prime311

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3011386
And lets assume your live rock is a platform for nitrification and you add it to your QT/HT and your fish in fact shows signs of parasitic infestation. What happens to your live rock when you treat it?

Where did I suggest treating a tank that has live rock with copper or hypo or other live rock killing medication?
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3011386
No sarcasm intended you are just making an assumption when you say that adding live rock to a tank will add or even perpetuate nitrifying bacteria

An assumption that has been, from my experience, correct. If you want to make a point about live rock placement to encourage nitrifying bacteria growth then do so. If you want to state that live rock not placed right may not have enough bacteria to sustain a qt then _make that point_. Don't tell me my method doesn't work or is wrong when its been proven time and again that it does work. Furthermore, I even stated that you should still test for Ammonia even if you seed with live rock to ensure that you aren't seeing a mini cycle.
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3011386
going on that assumption can tend to steer the hobbyist not to look to other methods of keeping the sick fish alive while the tank cycles.
This is at best a reach.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
What is the purpose of starting a HT /QT if you cannot treat with in that tank. Now assuming again your live rock has nitrifying bacteria on it is it now not the major bio filtration in your HT tank and if you have to treat a fish and remove the live rock have you now not removed that major source.
I never said you method is wrong. What I said is that you are assuming that if one were to take live rock out of there thank that rock it is inhabited with nitrifying bacteria. That is an assumption
 
prime311

prime311

Active Member
Personally I want my sick fish out of dt asap because I have a predator tank and theyll get picked on otherwise. Another good reason I would think is to try to prevent the disease from spreading to other fish. Most recently I started my qt with live rock and a filter pad then after a few days I started hypo and then when the water got below 1.020 I took the rock out. If I was just introducing a new fish though I start the qt with water change water and rock from my dt and would leave the rock in there unless I needed to treat it for some reason.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Personally I want my sick fish out of dt asap because I have a predator tank and theyll get picked on otherwise. Another good reason I would think is to try to prevent the disease from spreading to other fish.
agreed.
IMO using part of a filter pad that has been in your DT to seed your QT gives you a better chance of introducing nitrification and I want you to undersatnd I am in no way saying your method will not add the bactera I and saying one has to assume that the bactera is in fact present on the rock
 
lessthanlethal

lessthanlethal

Member
Okay I Called the LFS they have no take back for the fish. So I will try and put a rock from the DT. and keep testing I have ammo lock the fish is much better today. since it is a 10gal do my water changes need to be weekly? I have no other choice for the fishes sake. I can not belive he made it through the night what a tough fish.
B
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3011437
agreed.
IMO using part of a filter pad that has been in your DT to seed your QT gives you a better chance of introducing nitrification and I want you to undersatnd I am in no way saying your method will not add the bactera I and saying one has to assume that the bactera is in fact present on the rock
If the assumption is that there will be nitrifying bacteria in the LR, how does this change for the pad filter? Is it because you are assuming that the pad filter has a better chance at having the bacteria than the LR becuase it is in a more direct path to where the bacteria might start to colonize first?
Also how does this matter when your DT has been running for several months?
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Is it because you are assuming that the pad filter has a better chance at having the bacteria than the LR becuase it is in a more direct path to where the bacteria might start to colonize first?
I never said that the filter pad definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it. I said it has a better chance to harbor it. As it is in fact in an area where it is constantly in contact with nutrient rich water.
Also how does this matter when your DT has been running for several months?
Your tank bio filtration is constantly expanding and contracting in direct relation to the bio load feeding it. One can in fact have their tanks bio filtration accomplished solely via a filter pad and substraight, add mechanical filtration, there can be very little colonization on live rock and you can still have a viable tank
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
I never said that the filter pad definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it. I said it has a better chance to harbor it. As it is in fact in an area where it is constantly in contact with nutrient rich water.
Is that because the pad would be where the water is being pulled into the filter? Wouldn't the circulation of the tank's water (over the LR) provide the same nutrient rich water?
Your tank bio filtration is constantly expanding and contracting in direct relation to the bio load feeding it. One can in fact have their tanks bio filtration accomplished solely via a filter pad and substraight, add mechanical filtration, there can be very little colonization on live rock and you can still have a viable tank
I agree and don't argue the point that the tank can't be sustained without LR (as far as nitrification is concerned). The point that I am trying to make is that in a established tank (few months), the LR in the tank most likely has a good size colony of bacteria on it (maybe in it aswell). Perhaps enough to sustained a bio-load from a fish in Q. I honestly think both ways work just as good. I personally have a permanent QT, it best suites my need for one.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't the circulation of the tank's water (over the LR) provide the same nutrient rich water?
No first you would have to assure that the water is passing over the rock secondly the water is definitely passing through the filter material and first come first served.Once the colonization takes place on the filter material it will expand and “eat” the majority of nutrients as they pass through if not on the first pass on the ensuing passes the filter pad is in a constant flow area the live rock is hit and miss
the LR in the tank most likely has a good size colony of bacteria on it
You make my point by saying most likely but not definitely, there are just to many variables involved to say that live rock definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it, which was my original statement
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member

No first you would have to assure that the water is passing over the rock
Is this not standard practice?
secondly the water is definitely passing through the filter material and first come first served.
This would imply you would have to put the pad filter in during the intial setup of the tank (when you first start cycling the tank). This way you can assure that the filter pad will get the nutrients first, right? Otherwise the LR in the tank will already have the bacteria on it and it will get the nutrients first.
Once the colonization takes place on the filter material it will expand and “eat” the majority of nutrients as they pass through if not on the first pass on the ensuing passes the filter pad is in a constant flow area the live rock is hit and miss
How is the LR not in constant flow, when it is recomended to put the power heads so as to create flow over the LR?
You make my point by saying most likely but not definitely, there are just to many variables involved to say that live rock definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it, which was my original statement
I quote your own words:
"I never said that the filter pad definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it"
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
This would imply you would have to put the pad filter in during the intial setup of the tank (when you first start cycling the tank).
I don’t know anyone who sets up their tank with out some sort of mechanical filter do you?
How is the LR not in constant flow, when it is recomended to put the power heads so as to create flow over the LR?
There are many areas of dead spots on live rock water passing over the different areas do not insure that all of the live rock is in constant contact with water carrying nutrients. And again I say you most likely have the biggest concentration of bio filtration in areas where you definitely have contact with constant flow (mechanical filter media)
I quote your own words:
"I never said that the filter pad definitely has nitrifying bacteria on it"
Exactly I said most likely again an assumption and again my point
And once again so I fully understand your argument. Are you saying if you have live rock in your tank you must have nitrifying bacteria on it. If so why not just move a heater from one tank to another If your premises is that as long as its in your tank there must be colonization
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
And once again so I fully understand your argument. Are you saying if you have live rock in your tank you must have nitrifying bacteria on it. (I can ask the same thing about the pad filter) If so why not just move a heater from one tank to another If your premises is that as long as its in your tank there must be colonization (Where is this statement wrong?, so as long as what ever item we are talking about has been in the tank for a while and not just place the day before.)
My understanding is that the bacteria will colonize most surfaces under the water. Perhaps you are correct in saying that where the water first passes thru would have a better chance of colonization. To say that the heater will have adequate bacteria on the surface of it to sustain a bioload, like you said, it depends on alot of variable. This would hold true regarless of what item you are talking about. For example, if you have a tank with only water and a mehcanichal filter, than I would agree that most of the bacteria would be on whatever media you have in the mechanichal filter. Second example; If you have a tank with only water and a piece of LR, than most of the bcateria will on the surface of the LR. Third example; If you have a tank with both a mechanichal filter and a piece of LR, than I would assume that both have bacteria on them. Which one has more than the other? This I might not be able to answear like I would be able to answear the question of what is 2+2. From what I understand, both of them would have nitrifying bacteria. Once again, would this be enough to sustain a bioload? Maybe and maybe not. Same goes for both the pad filter and the piece of LR.
Well like I said I personally think both methods are equivalent being that neither has a guarantee that it will have nitrifying bacteria on it.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Loco my friend let me just deviate for a moment and say that its is a pleasure to debate when it does not turn into a personal attack which happens all to often (I have been part of many I am sad to say) lets just hope our debate gives fellow hobbyist something to think about
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3012246
Loco my friend let me just deviate for a moment and say that its is a please to debate when it does not turn into a personal attack which happens all to often (I have been part of many I am sad to say) lets just hope our debate gives fellow hobbyist something to think about
I hope so, I think most people just like fo follow now a days. It would be nice to seem them lead once in a while.
 
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