dbennett78
Member
I was reading the FAQ about setting up a quarantine and I was wondering why exactly shouldnt you have a substrate in the quarantine? I could see live sand but is crushed coral ok or not?
quarantine substrate
- Thread starter dbennett78
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dbennett78
Member
But having a substrate is fine like say if you are just doing hypo to treat right?
elfdoctors
Active Member
I'm doing hypo right now. I made the decision to use crushed coral (from my display tank). I do not need to add any medications so I thought the crushed coral would help in three ways:
1) Help to regulate the pH
2) Help to break down ammonia and nitrites (from bacteria in the established tank
3) Save me from having to paint the bottom of the tank.
Except for the medication absorption issue I don't see any downside. Moderators??
Good Luck!
1) Help to regulate the pH
2) Help to break down ammonia and nitrites (from bacteria in the established tank
3) Save me from having to paint the bottom of the tank.
Except for the medication absorption issue I don't see any downside. Moderators??
Good Luck!
Substrate absorbs medications rendering treatment less effective. Also, you need to keep a QT clean, thus when 1 fish goes from QT to display and you decide to add another to the QT, you will want to make sure things are cleaned up a bit. Think of it as a hospital. REAL hospitals for people don't have waterbeds and carpets......they are as simple as possible in order to keep the environment sterile and to make it easier to keep it sterile. Parasites commonly spend at least some part of their life cycle in sandbeds......so, why make it easy for them?? 
elfdoctors
Active Member
How sterile do you need to be?
If you are transferring a fish to the display tank aren't you assuming that there are no diseases in the hospital tank? If the tank is only being used to treat ich and the fish have been healthy for a month there should be no parasites left in the gravel. Am I correct?
Is there still a role for biological filtration in a hospital tank? Perhaps only in a filter system? Real hospitals are learning that overuse of antibiotics can create more problems then benefits as overgrowths of bad bacteria are more likely if the good ones have been killed off. I think that's one reason you like hyposalinity more then copper.
I had a number of fish die with my first trial of hypo. Beth, I am uncertain if you feel they died because of 1) a lack of a cycled tank or simply because 2) there were too many fish in my hospital tank? The two fish I have left are doing well.
I am developing a layer of algae primarily on the PVC pipe in my hypo tank. Does this and the walls, any substrate, and everything else need to be cleaned thoroughly between quarantines? I had assumed that if a quarantine was successful the tank slowly became more mature with bacteria that can survive in hyposalinity. Therefore the treatment tank would be safer also.
Beth, Sorry if I keep being a pest about hypo but I am trying to understand the concepts so I can make intelligent decisions in the future.
If you are transferring a fish to the display tank aren't you assuming that there are no diseases in the hospital tank? If the tank is only being used to treat ich and the fish have been healthy for a month there should be no parasites left in the gravel. Am I correct?
Is there still a role for biological filtration in a hospital tank? Perhaps only in a filter system? Real hospitals are learning that overuse of antibiotics can create more problems then benefits as overgrowths of bad bacteria are more likely if the good ones have been killed off. I think that's one reason you like hyposalinity more then copper.
I had a number of fish die with my first trial of hypo. Beth, I am uncertain if you feel they died because of 1) a lack of a cycled tank or simply because 2) there were too many fish in my hospital tank? The two fish I have left are doing well.
I am developing a layer of algae primarily on the PVC pipe in my hypo tank. Does this and the walls, any substrate, and everything else need to be cleaned thoroughly between quarantines? I had assumed that if a quarantine was successful the tank slowly became more mature with bacteria that can survive in hyposalinity. Therefore the treatment tank would be safer also.
Beth, Sorry if I keep being a pest about hypo
but I am trying to understand the concepts so I can make intelligent decisions in the future.
Originally posted by elfdoctors
How sterile do you need to be?
If you are transferring a fish to the display tank aren't you assuming that there are no diseases in the hospital tank? If the tank is only being used to treat ich and the fish have been healthy for a month there should be no parasites left in the gravel. Am I correct?
You might assume that and if fish have been approprately and carefully treated, it would be a good assumption....however, harmful organisms can and do make substrate a part of their "fertile environment". Thus, generally, in the hobby all exp hobbyists, and professional hobbyists feel that the substrateless floor is best. You can vaccum up the glass bottom following any treatments which not only will pick up and risidual harmful organisms but will also make your tank clearner and easier to maintain. Also, even if this was not an issue, you can not avoid the fact that sands, CC, absorbs meds. QT is not just for ich and hyposalinity. Hobbyists who are willing to set up a QT know very well that it is meant to cover all the diseases if the need occurs. Thus, the arguement, based solely on this, makes the need for no substrate clear. Additionally, there are some diseases that virtually require that the QT may need to be completely broken down and scrubbed down, perhaps even bleeched, following an outbreak. There goes the substrate. There are occassions when fish are sick and die and the hobbyist has not been able to ID the cause. In this case, you may want to break down the QT and sterilize it [rarely granted].
Is there still a role for biological filtration in a hospital tank? Perhaps only in a filter system?
You bet. The need for biological filtration and a complete cycle is needed in QT just as it is for the display. Biological filtration, however, is not limited to substrate. All surfaces exposed to tank water carries biological filtration. Also, if you follow the rule of having only 1 fish in a QT at a time, then it stands to reason that you do not need the super potent bio-filter that we all strive for in the display tank.
Real hospitals are learning that overuse of antibiotics can create more problems then benefits as overgrowths of bad bacteria are more likely if the good ones have been killed off. I think that's one reason you like hyposalinity more then copper.
All medications that treat for parasites are toxic to fish, just as they toxic to the parasite. Hyposalinity works just as well as cooper....without the harmful toxin exposure to fish. That is why I prefer hypo. If you could kill cancer by drinking DI water wouldn't you do it over taking chemo? Yep. Lucky captive fish that there is a viable non-toxic treatment for the most prevalent fish disease in the hobby.
I had a number of fish die with my first trial of hypo. Beth, I am uncertain if you feel they died because of 1) a lack of a cycled tank or simply because 2) there were too many fish in my hospital tank?
Both reasons will cause fish mortality. QTs are for 1 fish at a time idealy. Which is why Terry and I so strongly advocate for QTing fish before adding to Display [to avoid mass QT for sick fish in an emergency]. Tanks must be cycled or they must be constantly attended to keep them from cycling. Saying this, I frequently reccommend that hobbyists setting up QTs [especially if it is an emergency] add a few cups of their substrate to the QT. I, in fact, do this to my own QT. This helps seed an unclyced QT or maintain a cycled QT.
I am developing a layer of algae primarily on the PVC pipe in my hypo tank. Does this and the walls, any substrate, and everything else need to be cleaned thoroughly between quarantines? I had assumed that if a quarantine was successful the tank slowly became more mature with bacteria that can survive in hyposalinity. Therefore the treatment tank would be safer also.
No need to clean unless, like I said, some God-awful plague hits your QT and you could not ID what it was, etc. RARELY. The QT kinda gets cleaned up on its own in between fish guests. I wish I could say the same about my house!
Beth, Sorry if I keep being a pest about hypo but I am trying to understand the concepts so I can make intelligent decisions in the future.
I don't mind answering questions. I don't expect anybody to just blindly believe whatever is said here on the BB [or anywhere else]. I spend a lot of time here, and its mostly because I want to help people learn. I just wish I could find a paying job doing this all day long! I'd be in hogfish heaven!
How sterile do you need to be?
If you are transferring a fish to the display tank aren't you assuming that there are no diseases in the hospital tank? If the tank is only being used to treat ich and the fish have been healthy for a month there should be no parasites left in the gravel. Am I correct?
You might assume that and if fish have been approprately and carefully treated, it would be a good assumption....however, harmful organisms can and do make substrate a part of their "fertile environment". Thus, generally, in the hobby all exp hobbyists, and professional hobbyists feel that the substrateless floor is best. You can vaccum up the glass bottom following any treatments which not only will pick up and risidual harmful organisms but will also make your tank clearner and easier to maintain. Also, even if this was not an issue, you can not avoid the fact that sands, CC, absorbs meds. QT is not just for ich and hyposalinity. Hobbyists who are willing to set up a QT know very well that it is meant to cover all the diseases if the need occurs. Thus, the arguement, based solely on this, makes the need for no substrate clear. Additionally, there are some diseases that virtually require that the QT may need to be completely broken down and scrubbed down, perhaps even bleeched, following an outbreak. There goes the substrate. There are occassions when fish are sick and die and the hobbyist has not been able to ID the cause. In this case, you may want to break down the QT and sterilize it [rarely granted].
Is there still a role for biological filtration in a hospital tank? Perhaps only in a filter system?
You bet. The need for biological filtration and a complete cycle is needed in QT just as it is for the display. Biological filtration, however, is not limited to substrate. All surfaces exposed to tank water carries biological filtration. Also, if you follow the rule of having only 1 fish in a QT at a time, then it stands to reason that you do not need the super potent bio-filter that we all strive for in the display tank.
Real hospitals are learning that overuse of antibiotics can create more problems then benefits as overgrowths of bad bacteria are more likely if the good ones have been killed off. I think that's one reason you like hyposalinity more then copper.
All medications that treat for parasites are toxic to fish, just as they toxic to the parasite. Hyposalinity works just as well as cooper....without the harmful toxin exposure to fish. That is why I prefer hypo. If you could kill cancer by drinking DI water wouldn't you do it over taking chemo? Yep. Lucky captive fish that there is a viable non-toxic treatment for the most prevalent fish disease in the hobby.
I had a number of fish die with my first trial of hypo. Beth, I am uncertain if you feel they died because of 1) a lack of a cycled tank or simply because 2) there were too many fish in my hospital tank?
Both reasons will cause fish mortality. QTs are for 1 fish at a time idealy. Which is why Terry and I so strongly advocate for QTing fish before adding to Display [to avoid mass QT for sick fish in an emergency]. Tanks must be cycled or they must be constantly attended to keep them from cycling. Saying this, I frequently reccommend that hobbyists setting up QTs [especially if it is an emergency] add a few cups of their substrate to the QT. I, in fact, do this to my own QT. This helps seed an unclyced QT or maintain a cycled QT.
I am developing a layer of algae primarily on the PVC pipe in my hypo tank. Does this and the walls, any substrate, and everything else need to be cleaned thoroughly between quarantines? I had assumed that if a quarantine was successful the tank slowly became more mature with bacteria that can survive in hyposalinity. Therefore the treatment tank would be safer also.
No need to clean unless, like I said, some God-awful plague hits your QT and you could not ID what it was, etc. RARELY. The QT kinda gets cleaned up on its own in between fish guests.
I wish I could say the same about my house!Beth, Sorry if I keep being a pest about hypo
but I am trying to understand the concepts so I can make intelligent decisions in the future. I don't mind answering questions. I don't expect anybody to just blindly believe whatever is said here on the BB [or anywhere else]. I spend a lot of time here, and its mostly because I want to help people learn. I just wish I could find a paying job doing this all day long! I'd be in hogfish heaven!
elfdoctors
Active Member
Thanks a lot for replying. I need to have someone to run things by and some people cannot be believed. I live in a small town and there is only one other marine aquarium in the county that I am aware of (and he uses a service from 2 hours away to maintain his tank so he doesn't know much himself). I think this site is the most credible that I have been to. I have been getting more active on the boards instead of just lurking around as I used to.
I'm getting a better sense for this. I continue to have crushed coral primarily for the pH benefits as I don't like to use harsh chemicals like NaOH to regulate pH. Until I get more experience, I'm afraid I could hurt the fish making a sudden pH shift. If medications are ever needed I would certainly remove this.
I am using a Eheim cannister filter. Would this have to be discontinued if I used medication, as the substrate in the filter is closely related to gravel?
I plan on keeping my fish in hypo for an additional two weeks. The survivors are doing well!
I'm getting a better sense for this. I continue to have crushed coral primarily for the pH benefits as I don't like to use harsh chemicals like NaOH to regulate pH. Until I get more experience, I'm afraid I could hurt the fish making a sudden pH shift. If medications are ever needed I would certainly remove this.
I am using a Eheim cannister filter. Would this have to be discontinued if I used medication, as the substrate in the filter is closely related to gravel?
I plan on keeping my fish in hypo for an additional two weeks. The survivors are doing well!
elfdoctors
Active Member
The cannister has: several sized filters, "ehfimech" (small ceramic pieces designed to create eddies and help with capturing solid material, and "ehfisubstrate" a porous irregularly shaped rocklike material designed to allow bacteria to grow on it. It felt like crushed coral when I assembled to filter but it is a tannish color. If this is okay to use I assumed that crushed coral in the tank couldn't hurt and would help regulate the pH and seed the biological filtration of the filter.
The entire filter is new and was purchased to set up my quarantine/hospital tank. It was in operation for a week after I put crushed coral and water from my display tank before I put in the fish.
This filter system does not seem to be popular on the boards but my brother-in-law in New Jersey who got me started in the hobby recommended it. It develops a fairly good current and is very quiet.
I fear the "ehfisubstrate" might have to be removed/disabled/replaced if I ever used medications. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice for a quarantine tank. Do you have any better ideas?
The entire filter is new and was purchased to set up my quarantine/hospital tank. It was in operation for a week after I put crushed coral and water from my display tank before I put in the fish.
This filter system does not seem to be popular on the boards but my brother-in-law in New Jersey who got me started in the hobby recommended it. It develops a fairly good current and is very quiet.
I fear the "ehfisubstrate" might have to be removed/disabled/replaced if I ever used medications. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice for a quarantine tank. Do you have any better ideas?
The media that you have in your canister does not absorb. It provides surface space for nitrifying bacteria to grow and is designed to mechanically capture detritus. This is not absorbing. LR and sands, on the other hand, are porous and can retain the medication. If your canister had carbon, then this would be an absorbing material, and would need to be removed during a mediction treatment.
Think of it this way. If you pour grape juice on a sponge, it will be absorbed in the sponge. However, if you pour spaghetti boiled in water in a metal caldren, the caldron holds on to the spagetti but the water passes thru. The caldron absorbs absolutely nothing. Some materials in our filters absorb [like the sponge], and some block and capture [like the caldron]. Some do both.
As far as your canister is concerned it is fine for a QT. Even carbon has a short life as a mechanical/chemical filter [3 wks]. If carbon has been in use in your filter for a few wks, I wouldn't bother removing it for medication treatments. In fact, Carbon, after a few wks, goes from being a highly effective absorbing filter to a biological filter.
Sand is another whole ball game here. Sand is a biological filter as well as mechanical filter. If you have 3 inches of sand down in a QT that is functioning both as a biological filter [nitrifying bacteria] and a mechancial filter [waste trap] that is dependent upon the biological filter [to export/remove the waste] what will happen when you add copper or antibiotics or any med to the sandbed???
It will kill your sandbed's biological filter. Now, you have a dead sandbed devoid of biological filter. What happens to the waste in the sandbed?? See what what I mean? Understand now why we say no substrate?
Think of it this way. If you pour grape juice on a sponge, it will be absorbed in the sponge. However, if you pour spaghetti boiled in water in a metal caldren, the caldron holds on to the spagetti but the water passes thru. The caldron absorbs absolutely nothing. Some materials in our filters absorb [like the sponge], and some block and capture [like the caldron]. Some do both.
As far as your canister is concerned it is fine for a QT. Even carbon has a short life as a mechanical/chemical filter [3 wks]. If carbon has been in use in your filter for a few wks, I wouldn't bother removing it for medication treatments. In fact, Carbon, after a few wks, goes from being a highly effective absorbing filter to a biological filter.
Sand is another whole ball game here. Sand is a biological filter as well as mechanical filter. If you have 3 inches of sand down in a QT that is functioning both as a biological filter [nitrifying bacteria] and a mechancial filter [waste trap] that is dependent upon the biological filter [to export/remove the waste] what will happen when you add copper or antibiotics or any med to the sandbed???
It will kill your sandbed's biological filter. Now, you have a dead sandbed devoid of biological filter. What happens to the waste in the sandbed?? See what what I mean? Understand now why we say no substrate?
elfdoctors
Active Member
Thanks for the info about my filter.
I obviously wouldn't have a DSB in a QT. I think they are too complicated for a newbie like myself. Your post just emphasizes that. I haven't had problems with nitrates yet but may consider a DSB in the future.
What about the pH benefits? While I am doing hypo, my pH has had a tendency to drift lower. I have preferred to treat this with water changes as my tank had the prior problem with nitrites when there were 6 instead of 2 fish in the tank. The only pH adjuster I have now is Sodium Hydroxide (which came with the test kit). I am very cautious of using this chemical as my first death (probably coincidental) happened the day after I added half the recommended amount to bring the pH up to ideal levels. Do you suggest mixing in a different buffer(suggestions?)? Would you have to add it to every bucket of water used in water changes? Would adding a significant amount of buffer affect the hypo treatment? I have felt that having the crushed coral slows the drop in pH and puts one less element of risk into the equation. I have never had to adjust the pH in my display tank as the coral (and I assume the live rock) probably regulates this.
With a siphon pump and doing frequent water changes (still 5x/week on the nights I am home) the thin layer of crushed coral is very easy to keep clean so I am not concerned about waste buildup here.
I obviously wouldn't have a DSB in a QT. I think they are too complicated for a newbie like myself. Your post just emphasizes that. I haven't had problems with nitrates yet but may consider a DSB in the future.
What about the pH benefits? While I am doing hypo, my pH has had a tendency to drift lower. I have preferred to treat this with water changes as my tank had the prior problem with nitrites when there were 6 instead of 2 fish in the tank. The only pH adjuster I have now is Sodium Hydroxide (which came with the test kit). I am very cautious of using this chemical as my first death (probably coincidental) happened the day after I added half the recommended amount to bring the pH up to ideal levels. Do you suggest mixing in a different buffer(suggestions?)? Would you have to add it to every bucket of water used in water changes? Would adding a significant amount of buffer affect the hypo treatment? I have felt that having the crushed coral slows the drop in pH and puts one less element of risk into the equation. I have never had to adjust the pH in my display tank as the coral (and I assume the live rock) probably regulates this.
With a siphon pump and doing frequent water changes (still 5x/week on the nights I am home) the thin layer of crushed coral is very easy to keep clean so I am not concerned about waste buildup here.
When raising pH it is important that you do it SLOWLY. Any sudden spikes in pH, even when it is too low and you are tying to raise it, can kill fish. If you are uncomfortable with the brand you have, you can get another from the fish store, or, you can just use a fresh batch of baking soda. Be sure to measure pH everyday, better during the day, at the same time. Raise it in small increments. Forget about the crushed coral thing in terms of relying on it to supply all your pH needs.
There are a lot of debates and opinions about DSBs. So far I can't complain. I have had zero ammonia, zero nitrite, zero nitrate, zero phosphate since day one with my tank. My filters are the dsb and the live rock and a skimmer.
There are a lot of debates and opinions about DSBs. So far I can't complain. I have had zero ammonia, zero nitrite, zero nitrate, zero phosphate since day one with my tank. My filters are the dsb and the live rock and a skimmer.
elfdoctors
Active Member
You've got a beautiful tank!
I may have to upgrade to a DSB in my display tank sometime. My display tank has not had any nitrates since it cycled. I made sure I had lots of live rock and good filtration. However several months doesn't mean anything (particularly when my tank is not heavily stocked). It sounds like a DSB would help if I got delinquent in changing the water. My brother-in-law who was my guru when I started, pushed crushed coral for the pH buffering reason and that has been gospel for me even though I read that DSB's are more popular. Also the LFS's primarily only seem to sell CC. Maybe I'll exchange my CC to use for one time usages as substrate in my hospital tanks!
I may have to upgrade to a DSB in my display tank sometime. My display tank has not had any nitrates since it cycled. I made sure I had lots of live rock and good filtration. However several months doesn't mean anything (particularly when my tank is not heavily stocked). It sounds like a DSB would help if I got delinquent in changing the water. My brother-in-law who was my guru when I started, pushed crushed coral for the pH buffering reason and that has been gospel for me even though I read that DSB's are more popular. Also the LFS's primarily only seem to sell CC. Maybe I'll exchange my CC to use for one time usages as substrate in my hospital tanks!