Quarantine Tank Help...Sick Tang in beginning stages

[foxandhound]

We bought a used tank on craigslist with rock, fish, etc. We cleaned and restored it from the depths of hell and the fish seemed thankful and happy. A friend gave us his Coral Beauty as a gift. We drip acclimated and added her to our tank. In hindsight, we should have quarantined her, but we rushed and made a huge mistake. I guess we assumed all was well in our friend's tank and it certainly seems that way.
Well, the coral beauty seemed to have stolen our Tang's favorite cave for sleeping and hiding. So, about 5 days later, we moved the rocks around to create new caves. This seemed to have the opposite effect and the process really stressed the Tang out. We noticed very tiny white speckles/spots on her within a few hours. Then, an hour later, we noticed a cloudy white splotch above her eye. Oh man, freaking out over here. Then the Tang explored all of the new caves, she ate garlic soaked seaweed with delight, and she found a new cave that's even better. I wish that could just be the end of it. I know it wont be. We learned the lesson real fast....quarantine all new fish. Does this go for inverts and corals too?

So, now that we have some type of outbreak, who needs to be quarantined here? The Tang, the Coral Beauty, or everyone?
We found some fireworms and trapped as many as we could. We also added "Kick Ich" to our Tank, but are we dealing with Ich or Marine Velvet? I pretty much just read that all of the Ich remedies are bs and we should either go with hyposalinity or copper treatment in a hospital tank. Is this for all fish in the tank or just for the Tang?
All levels are OK, but nitrates and phosphates are a little high again. We did a water change 2 days ago. Our aquarium guy says it because the sand is new and the tank was cleaned so much that it is cycling again. (?)

 

[btldreef]

What you've read about those remedies is true. There is no effective reef safe treatment for ich. Once ich has been introduced, any fish that has been in contact with the original infected fish must be treated. I recommend hypo over copper, it tends to be less stressful to the fish. They will need to be treated in a separate tank (hospital tank) and your main tank will need to remain fishless for 6-8 weeks. An effective hypo salinity treatment also takes 6-8 weeks, so the time frames will work well together.
Technically anything in the aquarium that remains wet can transfer the ich parasite (corals, inverts, rock, etc). The risk is much less than it is with fish, but if a coral or like has been in a tank with an infected fish, there is still a risk. Dipping your corals with solutions such as Coral ReVive is one way people try to combat that. I QT EVERYTHING before it goes in my main tank. Inverts/corals/rock can not go in hypo or a tank that has been treated with copper (or other medications). If they are placed in a fishless system for 6-8 weeks, no ich parasite will be transferred.

 

[foxandhound]

Thanks a lot. You explained it very well. So I really want to do this right, I have a couple more questions....whoever can help, much appreciated. I have been reading, but that has prompted more questions...
So, all the fish need to be moved to a hospital tank for copper or low salinity treatment? Do the inverts and corals stay in the original tank? How many gallons should the hospital tank be?(I have a 75G and 6 fish).
Do I move all the fish into a smaller tank or should the tang and clownfish have their own tank? They are buddies. Maybe 2 Hospital Tanks? Could I half fill a 55 gallon for the tang and clownfish or fill all the way for all fish?
What should a hospital tank have in it and do I test the water the same ways? What type of filter is needed? Is a biowheel a sponge filter? No sand and no rocks- Does this mean it should have PVC pipe and plastic décor for hiding? What about a bubbler or powerhead? Should I catch each fish and drip acclimate them to the new Hospital Tank?
What are some of the better ways to catch fish? I just rehomed a damsel and catching him was a real nightmare. Is there a trap or method that works?
Out of curiosity, why don’t antiobiotic products work with Ich?? Like Kick-Ich or Instant Ocean LifeGuard?

 

[florida joe]

Ick is a parasitic disease not a bacterial
Quote:
Out of curiosity, why don’t antiobiotic products work with Ich??

 

[mr. limpid]

So, all the fish need to be moved to a hospital tank for copper or low salinity treatment? YES Do the inverts and corals stay in the original tank? YES How many gallons should the hospital tank be?(I have a 75G and 6 fish). 30 GAL will do
Do I move all the fish into a smaller tank or should the tang and clownfish have their own tank? Together is easier, but if they fight may need to separate They are buddies. Maybe 2 Hospital Tanks? Could I half fill a 55 gallon if this what you have QT, you could separate into two tanks with egg create for the tang and clownfish or fill all the way for all fish?
What should a hospital tank have in it and do I test the water the same ways? coffee cups or PVC pipe for hiding places. Look into thread at the top of the Fish Disease form What type of filter is needed? Is a biowheel a sponge filter? A sponge from your DT would be great has bacteria already on it No sand and no rocks- Correct Does this mean it should have PVC pipe and plastic décor for hiding? Correct What about a bubbler or powerhead? Not required Should I catch each fish and drip acclimate them to the new Hospital Tank? not required use water from DT and add fresh salt water to DT.
What are some of the better ways to catch fish? See my thread in Tip & Tech I just rehomed a damsel and catching him was a real nightmare. Is there a trap or method that works?

 

[peasofme]

reefland.com

 

[beaslbob]

I would try feeding the tang some live macro algae like caulerpa prolifera or chaeto.
I had very similiar experiences with a yellow tang until I added the macros to the tank.
my .02

 

[reeferchief]

The fish may be able to fight it off by itself if everything is ideal. Water levels, temp, light, very little disturbance of the tank, regular water changes, etc. I had a powder brown get ich but my problem was very little research and the guy at the store sold us a 3-4" tang that was a little big for our tank and was not doing regular water changes along with moving rocks...Didn't really give the tang a peacful environment.
I now have another tang (Kole) who is much smaller, seems much happier and also researched is a much hardier type of tang in comparison to the powders and hippo. She swims and grazes all day long, I make sure the tank is disturbed as little as possible, i feed a mixed diet which is all garlic soaked and I do weekly water changes.
Good luck...

 

[mr. limpid]

The problem with ick that it only takes one to produce hundreds more. In a closed environment the fish doesn't have a fighting chance in the ocean when ick falls off that particular fish can be miles away from the original ick. Plus in the theront stage is when they block the fishes gills which causes the rapid breathing and more stress on the fish. not until you stop the life cycle of ick will it be truly gone.

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid http:///t/388941/quarantine-tank-help-sick-tang-in-beginning-stages#post_3433519
The problem with ick that it only takes one to produce hundreds more. In a closed environment the fish doesn't have a fighting chance in the ocean when ick falls off that particular fish can be miles away from the original ick. Plus in the theront stage is when they block the fishes gills which causes the rapid breathing and more stress on the fish. not until you stop the life cycle of ick will it be truly gone.
the other problem with ich IMHO is there is always at least one in any tank.
To my the key is to have a heathy environment so the fishs' immune system can fight off the ICH and other stuff.
my .02

 

[mr. limpid]

Quote:
"the other problem with ich IMHO is there is always at least one in any tank"
I'm going to disagree here once you have ended the ick's life cycle there isn't not even one left in your tank. Reason if there is one in your tank and it finds a host there will hundreds and so on and so on.
Quote:
To my the key is to have a healthy environment so the fish's' immune system can fight off the ICH and other stuff.
A health immune system is great to fight off other stuff but not ick. A thick slim coat will protect a fish from ick. But in tangs this not possible even with great immune system they simply do not have a thick enough slim coat to fend off ick.

 

[foxandhound]

Thanks everyone for the much needed help and support. We just spent a few days getting supplies and preping. We half filled a 55 gallon tank with saltwater and we will be adding RO water for a hyposalinity treatment. We figure we will start with the less aggressive method. This will be a community hospital tank and we will add the eggcrate for separating the fishes (I guess you mean the styrofoam packaging that eggs come in) if we see any fighting. We got some PVC pipes in all types of sizes and configurations, hopefully that will form some caves and hiding spots.
Thanks for ALL of these awesome suggestions!!!!!
Just a couple more questions...man, this is stressful.
What can we use for the DT sponge for bacteria???? We have a sponge from the prefilter. We also have a sponge in our sump. Can we maybe take out one of these and replace them with a new sponge later today or can we cut the sponge in our sump in half and use it? We have never washed the sponge in the sump, we washed the prefilter sponge a week ago.
We also bought a bottle of nitrifying bacteria, it's called FRITZ Zyme 9. Th LFS said we should add it to the hospital tank to avoid cycling and we also got a bottle of Seachem Prime to use during drip acclimation and in the Hospital Tank? Is this OK? Do we maybe pour in the bottle of FRITZ Zyme and wait a day or two before adding our fish?
Also, just wanted to know if you guys think we should give our Tang a freshwater dip? Should this be before or after the drip acclimation? She has maybe 100-150 spots on her.
My filter disc/pad thing on my whisper air pump is really dirty. I tried to rinse it, but it's not helping. Can it still be used until I find a replacement? Is this pump to run 24-7 during hospital tank use?
What should my target temp be....80 degrees or so? I was reading that it should be higher the first week to speed up the Ich cycle?
Man, we are so nervous! Thanks to all, your help is the only thing keeping my girlfriend sane.

 

[foxandhound]

Also, I just placed the sponge filter into the half filled tank and then connected to the "whisper 40" air pump. I guess you could say the tank has 25 gallons of water in it so far. The surface bubbles are obnoxious as heck. It is pretty loud and the family is annoyed. Maybe a better air pump is needed? What advice can you give on quieter filtration???? A friend can give me the fluval 205...can I connect that?

 

[mr. limpid]

What can we use for the DT sponge for bacteria???? Yes We have a sponge from the prefilter. We also have a sponge in our sump. Can we maybe take out one of these and replace them with a new sponge later today or can we cut the sponge in our sump in half and use it? Yes We have never washed the sponge in the sump, we washed the prefilter sponge a week ago.
We also bought a bottle of nitrifying bacteria, it's called FRITZ Zyme 9. Th LFS said we should add it to the hospital tank to avoid cycling and we also got a bottle of Seachem Prime to use during drip acclimation and in the Hospital Tank? Is this OK? Never used Fritz may be a bottle of bacteria Prime is similar to Amqel reduces ammonia and increases fishes slime coat (no ill effect with hypo; read bottle if you are using copper)Do we maybe pour in the bottle of FRITZ Zyme and wait a day or two before adding our fish? Do not wait i would not use the Fritz (because you have bacteria on the sponge)
Also, just wanted to know if you guys think we should give our Tang a freshwater dip? No more stress than needed, only as last resort)Should this be before or after the drip acclimation? She has maybe 100-150 spots on her.
My filter disc/pad thing on my whisper air pump is really dirty. I tried to rinse it, but it's not helping. Can it still be used until I find a replacement? a piece of cotton ball or nothing Is this pump to run 24-7 during hospital tank use?yes
What should my target temp be....80 degrees or so? same as your DT I was reading that it should be higher the first week to speed up the Ich cycle? No (not true)

 

[foxandhound]

I set up the Hospital Tank. Going to try and treat by hyposalinity with your awesome suggestions.
So, I think I lost a lot of the helpful bacteria during the drip acclimation of 6 fish. I replaced the water, but I guess I diluted the helpful bacteria. Is this a problem? Will it impact nitrates?
Yesterday was day 1 of hospitalization, our Tang went from happy and swimming to stressed, color loss, on her side, heavy breathing. I connected an airstone and prayed. Then, I saw our clown gasping for air and staying at the surface, also stressed. Water test showed sudden deadly nitrates, but low ammonia. I did a 50% water change. I wonder how many sudden spikes we'll have. Very scary! The clown is happy again. Tang is happy too. Everyone is eating frozen mysis, spectrum pellets, and garlic soaked seaweed. I heard I should feed 2x-3x during illness- this wold mean everyday, sometimes twice a day?
My issue is...the foam/sponge filter is a joke. Seems like more filtration is needed asap? Can I hook up a fluval canister or tetra power filter? Can I leave the carbon in since I am treating by hyposalinity methods???
Also, how do I clean the poop in a hospital tank? Is there a way to siphon without taking out gallons of water? Or will I just do better in time?
FWIW, my Tang is stressed, but eating and swimming well in the day time. At night, she's not interested in going into the PVC. At night, she sleeps under PVC, on the bare floor, lying on her side almost touching the heater (new and strange behavior). She also does not want to move at night. If I put on the actinics, she still stays like that. I dont think she's doing well, but her daytime behavior is different. The Ich is everywhere on her. I didnt freshwater dip her because I dont know what I'm doing and I thought she couldnt handle the stress. Should I do it now? Also, our pH is 7.4, but NH3/NO2-/NO3- is normal. I am going to add Baking Soda soon. :/
Should I leave the airstone in there 24-7, is it supposed to be at the bottom of the tank or more to the surface?? Should it be closer to my distressed Tang?
By how much do most lower thesalinity daily until reaching 0.009? I guess I should go really slow bc of the Tang?
SORRY for all the questions....this is my 1st time and will be my last if I can help it. Thanks everyone. Annie (Seth's girlfriend)

 

[foxandhound]

Here are some pics of the sad, sad Fish Hospital. Here are your patients! I think they hate me since I've moved them here. Everyone has a PVC pipe and no one goes near them.

So sorry to sound silly here, but I still have a couple unanswered questions in the comment above, would love any help or info! Many thanks!!!

 

[sepulatian]

Go slowly. It is MUCH better to pull larger amounts of salt water out and dribble fresh back in, than to do water changes with fresh. You want the SG drop to be gradual. You will have to feel this out for yourself. Pull water out then dribble fresh back in. Test all of the way. Speaking of testing, you need to test for ammonia. You have a tank that was set up pretty quick and a lot of bioload. You will need to be ready to do water changes with water that matches your QT in SG and temp.

 

[foxandhound]

What should my ideal pH be? In my DT, it was 8.4...
Right now, in my hospital tank, it's 7.4
My RO water is much lower, maybe 7 or less. I have a high pH test kit. :/
I think my biggest challenge will be to mix the right amount of baking soda to ease the pH... and keep i there....but what's the ideal?

 

[morgan175]

Tangs rule just wrote a great article on this. Called new methods for quartantine.

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxandHound http:///t/388941/quarantine-tank-help-sick-tang-in-beginning-stages#post_3433859
....
. This will be a community hospital tank and we will add the eggcrate for separating the fishes (I guess you mean the styrofoam packaging that eggs come in) if we see any fighting. We got some PVC pipes in all types of sizes and configurations, hopefully that will form some caves and hiding spots.
...
Hopefully this has already been cleared up.
Egg crate used here refers to the 1/4 square plastic grid lighting diffusers used for flourecent light covers in dropped ceilings.
I have used it as a partition to keep the fish on one side and macros on the other while still allowing water to flow between both.
I wish you the best of luck but to me the best thing is to get macro algae thriving to consume ammonia and carbon dioxide while returning oxygen and allowing the tang to nibble on the macros.
my .02