Questions about auto top off

[jstdv8]

So I've had an auto top off unit for a looong time and never installed it.
I was thinking of getting a 55 gallon drum for freshwater and puting the pump in there and just adding new water to it with my RODI.
My questions are.
1.) should I have two small drums or 1 big one or doesnt it matter?
2.) if I wanted to do the kalk adding system with the pump off the bottom of the drum a bit how exactly do I do that and how do i know how much kalk to add if I'm just topping off the drum on occasion?
3.) I've heard that the kalk can form a hard surface on the water that you don't want to go into the DT. do I have to reach in the holding drum sometimes and clean it or is this not a problem?
I can't believe it's taken me this long to get sick of topping off with water manually every day LOL

 

[pezenfuego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498161
So I've had an auto top off unit for a looong time and never installed it.
I was thinking of getting a 55 gallon drum for freshwater and puting the pump in there and just adding new water to it with my RODI.
My questions are.
1.) should I have two small drums or 1 big one or doesnt it matter?
2.) if I wanted to do the kalk adding system with the pump off the bottom of the drum a bit how exactly do I do that and how do i know how much kalk to add if I'm just topping off the drum on occasion?
3.) I've heard that the kalk can form a hard surface on the water that you don't want to go into the DT. do I have to reach in the holding drum sometimes and clean it or is this not a problem?
I can't believe it's taken me this long to get sick of topping off with water manually every day LOL
The big problem with dosing kalk is that not everything in it soluble. Therefore, junk will settle at the bottom. If you suck that up and put it in your tank, you'll get alkalinity issues. The simple fix is to make sure that the tubing that sucks water from the drum is a few inches from the bottom so that you don't get the insoluble nasties.
1) As far as I know it doesn't matter. Here's something to chew on: If you dose kalk and screw up, then your alkalinity is thrown off. If your ATO fails, then your salinity is thrown off. But if you put your kalk in the ATO, then both get screwed up. But I still think it is worth doing. Perhaps I didn't answer your question-I may not have interpreted it correctly.
2) Here's what I would do: Run the ATO with just freshwater for a while and figure out how much water is used per week. Then you can do a simple calculation to determine how much kalk to add to your drum. Something else to consider: If your ATO tops off very infrequently, then you could shock the system with large doses of kalk. That usually isn't an issue (mine tops off every 10-15 minutes), but you should keep that in mind.
3) I would clean it on occasion if I were you. So long as the tubing doesn't skim the top or the bottom, it should be fine. I would also recommend mixing your solution, letting it settle and precipitate and then siphon off only the fluid portions to use in your drum.
I don't know how helpful that advice was. Sorry if it wasn't adequate. Best of luck!

 

[jstdv8]

So I've still got o mix the Kalk separate? Makes sense, I was hoping for a different response, but it is what it is. Can I just mix it in like 5 gals of water and then toss it in the 55? Or should I mix a whole 55 and move to the new container?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498161
So I've had an auto top off unit for a looong time and never installed it.
I was thinking of getting a 55 gallon drum for freshwater and puting the pump in there and just adding new water to it with my RODI.
My questions are.
1.) should I have two small drums or 1 big one or doesnt it matter?
2.) if I wanted to do the kalk adding system with the pump off the bottom of the drum a bit how exactly do I do that and how do i know how much kalk to add if I'm just topping off the drum on occasion?
3.) I've heard that the kalk can form a hard surface on the water that you don't want to go into the DT. do I have to reach in the holding drum sometimes and clean it or is this not a problem?
I can't believe it's taken me this long to get sick of topping off with water manually every day LOL
Hi,
As Pez said...any size holding tank will do.
However...I would not try to dose kalk from the ATO...the air is what creates the hard skim and a holding tank is too open to do the job. A smaller container (5g bucket for example) that is inclosed is what I used for dosing and they do sell such a thing....I have a $100.00 digital fancy dosing pump still in the box and never used...PM me if you would like to (not on this site) make a deal.

 

[jstdv8]

I thought I had read on here that people make their freshwater kalkwater before adding to the tank and that they put the pump up off the bottom to prevent issues with the hard stuff. I'm getting mixed reviews :cry:

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498823
I thought I had read on here that people make their freshwater kalkwater before adding to the tank and that they put the pump up off the bottom to prevent issues with the hard stuff. I'm getting mixed reviews

Kalk gets a hard film on the top...the more oxygen the thicker the top crust...which can't go into the tank...there is also a milky sediment on the bottom, also can't go into the tank. The only usable portion is the clear water in the center. You can't just dump it in...it has to slowly drip, such as you get with an IV drip. Too much too fast and you crash the tank.
Sooooo...you need an enclosed container to prevent too much air. Then you need to figure out how much top off water you use each day, and adjust the IV drip to fill your tank with the dosed kalk freshwater, to match the drip to as slow as it evaporates. Then you need to set the IV drip to pull water from the center where the good usable kalk water is, and not allow it to go too low so you get the milky gunk on the bottom or the hard crusty yuck from the top.
This is how dosing kalk is done. Personally I don't see anything simple about it. Then the added work of constant monitoring the kalk container to not allow it ti get too low, and the constant cleaning of said container and mixing the new kalk. I prefer to just dose calcium by a few cap-fulls per instructions from the calcium additive you can just buy. I do a calcium test and if it's low I add it as needed.
LOL...That's why I have a brand new digital doser just siting on my shelf.
You CAN set up as larger container, but you need to cover it so to prevent the hard crust from getting too thick, and you can't allow the milky crap to get sucked up...the cleaning would be harder to do because of the size of the container...Normally you just fill the ATO container with freshwater and your all set. If you add kalk to that holding tank you have the same issues you have with the smaller more manageable container...the milky crud gets thicker until it is so high you must dump it and clean up the holding tank and you would have to skim the top crust off all the time.

 

[pezenfuego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498831
Kalk gets a hard film on the top...the more oxygen the thicker the top crust...which can't go into the tank...there is also a milky sediment on the bottom, also can't go into the tank. The only usable portion is the clear water in the center. You can't just dump it in...it has to slowly drip, such as you get with an IV drip. Too much too fast and you crash the tank.
Sooooo...you need an enclosed container to prevent too much air. Then you need to figure out how much top off water you use each day, and adjust the IV drip to fill your tank with the dosed kalk freshwater, to match the drip to as slow as it evaporates. Then you need to set the IV drip to pull water from the center where the good usable kalk water is, and not allow it to go too low so you get the milky gunk on the bottom or the hard crusty yuck from the top.
This is how dosing kalk is done. Personally I don't see anything simple about it. Then the added work of constant monitoring the kalk container to not allow it ti get too low, and the constant cleaning of said container and mixing the new kalk. I prefer to just dose calcium by a few cap-fulls per instructions from the calcium additive you can just buy. I do a calcium test and if it's low I add it as needed.
LOL...That's why I have a brand new digital doser just siting on my shelf.
You CAN set up as larger container, but you need to cover it so to prevent the hard crust from getting too thick, and you can't allow the milky crap to get sucked up...the cleaning would be harder to do because of the size of the container...Normally you just fill the ATO container with freshwater and your all set. If you add kalk to that holding tank you have the same issues you have with the smaller more manageable container...the milky crud gets thicker until it is so high you must dump it and clean up the holding tank and you would have to skim the top crust off all the time.

That's what I was trying to communicate, but you did it better.
I personally wouldn't put kalk in my top off water. It isn't that it's complicated, it is the fact that the evaporation rate is completely unrelated to the other levels of the tank and relying on it to control another parameter makes me uneasy.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498843

That's what I was trying to communicate, but you did it better.
I personally wouldn't put kalk in my top off water. It isn't that it's complicated, it is the fact that the evaporation rate is completely unrelated to the other levels of the tank and relying on it to control another parameter makes me uneasy.
I think it's just such a hassle to mess with...but people do it all the time. I explained it well because others were kind enough to explain it to me, step by little step...I was completely lost trying to figure out what folks were talking about too.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498895
I think it's just such a hassle to mess with...but people do it all the time. I explained it well because others were kind enough to explain it to me, step by little step...I was completely lost trying to figure out what folks were talking about too.
I used to drip kalk all the time in my systems. Never seemed to have a problem at all... not really that risky either.

 

[beaslbob]

One thing to consider on auto top offs with sumps is what happens should a drain/overflow fail.
The sump level goes down, auto topofff kicks in and therefore more water is pumped to the higher container(s).
Could flood very easily.
just my .02

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498161
So I've had an auto top off unit for a looong time and never installed it.
I was thinking of getting a 55 gallon drum for freshwater and puting the pump in there and just adding new water to it with my RODI.
My questions are.
1.) should I have two small drums or 1 big one or doesnt it matter?
2.) if I wanted to do the kalk adding system with the pump off the bottom of the drum a bit how exactly do I do that and how do i know how much kalk to add if I'm just topping off the drum on occasion?
3.) I've heard that the kalk can form a hard surface on the water that you don't want to go into the DT. do I have to reach in the holding drum sometimes and clean it or is this not a problem?
I can't believe it's taken me this long to get sick of topping off with water manually every day LOL
You know you don't have to put kalk directly in your auto top off reservoir... it would be MUCH easier to actually get a two little fishies kalk reactor and use it in conjunction with your ATO. It makes it much easier to add ca and alk... and much cheaper too. Plus, the reactor is only like $60 and worth every penny.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498899
One thing to consider on auto top offs with sumps is what happens should a drain/overflow fail.
The sump level goes down, auto topofff kicks in and therefore more water is pumped to the higher container(s).
Could flood very easily.
just my .02
ATO keeps the water in the sump topped off at a constant level that is set by you... as long as you don't set it above the max fill level, there is nothing to worry about at all.

 

[flower]

The only problem I had with an ATO is when my HOB Coralife (garbage) skimmer was dumping water on the floor while I wasn't home. The ATO kept refilling the tank with freshwater. However once the holding tank got down so low the pump shut off (a fail safe to keep the pump from burning up) The SG dropped, but not to dangerous levels and all was good...never hook the ATO to an unlimited supply of freshwater, always use a holding tank and you won't have to worry.

 

[pezenfuego]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498956
The only problem I had with an ATO is when my HOB Coralife (garbage) skimmer was dumping water on the floor while I wasn't home. The ATO kept refilling the tank with freshwater. However once the holding tank got down so low the pump shut off (a fail safe to keep the pump from burning up) The SG dropped, but not to dangerous levels and all was good...never hook the ATO to an unlimited supply of freshwater, always use a holding tank and you won't have to worry.
The part that I would be concerned about would be whether or not the tank could survive a large addition of kalk in an instance where the tank fails and the ATO pumps all of the holding tank's water into the DT.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498958
The part that I would be concerned about would be whether or not the tank could survive a large addition of kalk in an instance where the tank fails and the ATO pumps all of the holding tank's water into the DT.
Something to think about...I think it would depend on how fast the leak drains and the ATO replaces the water....in my situation it was a small constant drip that took over night (I worked night shift) to drain the holding tank, so it would not have done any harm.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498958
The part that I would be concerned about would be whether or not the tank could survive a large addition of kalk in an instance where the tank fails and the ATO pumps all of the holding tank's water into the DT.
You bring up a good point....
These days most people prefer to use equipment that fits directly inside the sump - and doesn't leak saltwater outside of the sump. If something starts leaking at the rate that you propose, it's most likely that the tank or sump itself has sprung a leak. Then, there is the bigger problem of finding homes for your livestock. The pH of the tank wouldn't necessarily matter in that case. Most equipment these days, if it leaks, will only make drips - unless it is severe user error and/or on a timer.
If you are concerned about that, then a controller would be a good redundancy item - it would monitor your pH and if it detects that your pH is too high it would turn off your ATO. If your pH is too low, it would cut off your calcium reactor... that's the reason why controllers are becoming so popular - is because it is a safeguard,... kind of like having primary insurance on your tank.

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3498901
ATO keeps the water in the sump topped off at a constant level that is set by you... as long as you don't set it above the max fill level, there is nothing to worry about at all.
Gee apparently I have to work on my communications.
Assuming a display tank above and small sump below.
and the ato kicks in when the sump goes below a certain level usually due to evaporation.
And just to make it ridiculous a 55g tank for the ato and a 30g display. (as I said ridiculous)
Normal operation evapoartion say 1/2 g a day so the ato adds say 2 gallons every 4 days.
Fine and dandy things working great. Don't have to refill the ato tank very often.
But no consider you're on a 2 week vacation and a snail blocks the drain from the display to the sump 2 minutes after you leave. 100% blockage. Sure sure ridiculous but then what would happen? And of course you completely topped off the ato tank just before you left.
Analysis:
The sump level would go down and display level rise.
The ato would kick in and add 55g of water to the sump which is them pumped to the display.
The display is already full so you get a 54-55g flood while you're gone.
The salinity drops and everything in the tank dies.
Two weeks later, on return and seeing the smelly moldy mess, you spouse says can't have tanks any more.
You have $20,000 of structural damage to your house because you have the tank on the first floor above a basement or on the second floor.
Hopefully that clarifies my concern.
Without the ato and with the sump properly adjusted there would have been no flood.
My point was that you have this new failure mode you must consider.
One thing to do is to have multiple drains or even an emergency overflow at a higher level to insure something is always draining.
Another you could do it to add a level switch to turn off the return pump if the display goes above a certain level.
but I don't like switches and the like.
So you can prevent this new failure mode.
But IMHO you should not ignore it.
FWIW I have heard reports (rumors?) of exactly that happening to same very advanced well respected hobbyists.
my .02

 

[pezenfuego]

I have a 3/4 gallon ATO tank (pitcher) which could potentially kill everything in my tank by lower the salinity. That's why I have a float switch in the ATO container. If I'm gone for a long time, I'll raise the float switch and prevent the whole thing from being pumped into the tank while I'm away. So, like you said, there are a few ways that you can prevent a total destruction of the tank. But I see your point.

 

[jstdv8]

well, I'm glad i asked because I thought you just added to correct amount of kalk to the top off water and let the ATO take care of it.
Sounds like it's more of a pain than it's worth. I'll just do frequent water changes.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///t/393313/questions-about-auto-top-off#post_3499035
well, I'm glad i asked because I thought you just added to correct amount of kalk to the top off water and let the ATO take care of it.
Sounds like it's more of a pain than it's worth. I'll just do frequent water changes.
If it's water changes you want to get out of doing:

• 
  You can keep macro algae, it removes the nitrates from the system as you harvest it. (remove the overgrowth)
• 
  Run a turf scrubber
  Use an Aquaripure nitrate filter (that's the only nitrate filter I am familiar with)

Then dose the tank for whatever trace elements are being used up...that requires frequent water tests (never dose what you have not tested for to find out what, if anything, is needed, and how much)