Questions about Hyposalinity for Display Tank

[roberteb]

I currently have a 300 gallon tank with the following stock list:
1 7-8" Dogface Puffer
2 6-7" Yellow Tangs
1 3-4" Blonde Naso Tang
1 3" Hippo Tang
1 3-4" Raccoon Butterflyfish
1 6-7" Emperor Angelfish
1 2-3" Flame Angel
1 2-3" Magenta Dottyback
1 7-8" Spanish Hogfish
1 6-7" Maroon Clownfish
1 7-8" Two Barred Rabbitfish
1 2-3" Niger Trigger
1 2-3" cleaner wrasse
I recently noticed a small outbreak of cryptocaryon on the fins of my dogface puffer, spanish hogfish & rabbitfish. None of the fish are scratching and all show "normal" behaviour. I like to completely rid my tank of cryptocaryon before it does become a problem. I have 250-300 pounds of live rock and 150-200 pounds of sand. There are no inverts of any kind. I have no access to a suitable quarantine tank for either the fish or the rock.
I wanted to perform Hyposalinity on this tank and wanted some advice as I don't plan on removing rock or sand.
1. Will not removing the rock and sand cause a problem during hyposalinity? There are no critters of any kind on rock
2. Currently the salininty is at 1.022. How much water would have to be removed and freshwater added to lower salinity to 1.009? How fast can I safely lower to 1.009?
3. How long should the salinity be kept at 1.009?
4. Is skimming possible with the salinity this low?

 

[sepulatian]

The rock has to come out. There is more life on there than you know. Pull it into a rubber maid storage bin. Add a power head or three. Use water from your display, you have to remove a good amount anyway.
Reduce the SG to 1.009 over 48 hours or a bit more. Gradual is better. Rather than a few huge amounts of FW being added, add it all day for two or three days. Test after every time.
The skimmer can run for oxygen but it won't skim in water that isn't as dense.
You have to keep the SG at 1.009 for three weeks AFTER the last spot is gone. You must not let it rise above 1.009 at any time.

 

[roberteb]

Any life that was on the rock was killed when I used a copper treatment on it several months ago. The only thing on the rock is the nitrifying bacteria. And as noted in my original post "I have no access to a suitable quarantine tank for either the fish or the rock." I live in a small apartment and have no room for anything adequate to house rock.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by roberteb
http:///forum/post/3073484
Any life that was on the rock was killed when I used a copper treatment on it several months ago. The only thing on the rock is the nitrifying bacteria. And as noted in my original post "I have no access to a suitable quarantine tank for either the fish or the rock." I live in a small apartment and have no room for anything adequate to house rock.
What happened with the copper treatment? It must not have been successful or you would not need to treat again.
If you do not have room for a rubber maid bin for the rocks then how will you have room for the buckets of water that you will need mixing for water changes should the ammonia spike? I strongly encourage you to pull the rock out of there.
This has come up many times. Some choose to leave the rock in. The results are disastrous. Please remove the rock.

 

[rcreations]

Doing hypo on a 300 gal tank is going to be very tough. You'll need to do huge water changes, espcially when it's time to bring it back up to 1.024.
Why didn't copper work?

 

[roberteb]

Originally Posted by RCreations
http:///forum/post/3073597
Doing hypo on a 300 gal tank is going to be very tough. You'll need to do huge water changes, espcially when it's time to bring it back up to 1.024.
Why didn't copper work?

When bringig it back up how much is to much?
When doing water changes I use a 44 gallon Brute. So when I'm ready to bring it up what should the salinity be in the brute to slowly bring it up to 1.021?
The copper didn't work as the levels would drop dramatically daily as I think it was sucked up by the sand and rock. Also, the fish were stressed by the copper and I do not want to subject them to copper if I don't have too.

 

[florida joe]

It is the norm to bring your salinity back up over a week. If I were you I would just add my top off water with a saltwater solution of 1.025 or greater and take as long as needed to return to your normal state of salinity

 

[deejeff442]

i have about the same water as you in my system 320 gallons .
when my fish got ich i took out all the rock over 300 lbs hypoed for 5 weeks
another week to bring up the salt and the ich came back worse a week later.
it took almost 500 gallons of fw at 40 gallons a day to get it down to 1.008-1.009. i couldnt believe it took that much.
well when the ich came back i decided to copper the dt.
i also dont have a qt big eneough for the fish.
i left around 25-30 lbs of rock in there so the smaller fish had some hiding spots.my achilles bit off my purple and foxfaces tails half off.in the empty hypo tank.
i got an ammonia spike of .25 from the dieoff of just 25 lbs of rock.so 300 lbs will kill the fish for sure.
i finally have one more week to put the rock back in the tank and the copper has been removed for a week now and still have 3 big bags of carbon in there.
6 weeks seems like forever.

 

[roberteb]

Originally Posted by deejeff442
http:///forum/post/3073749
i have about the same water as you in my system 320 gallons .
when my fish got ich i took out all the rock over 300 lbs hypoed for 5 weeks
another week to bring up the salt and the ich came back worse a week later.
it took almost 500 gallons of fw at 40 gallons a day to get it down to 1.008-1.009. i couldnt believe it took that much.
well when the ich came back i decided to copper the dt.
i also dont have a qt big eneough for the fish.
i left around 25-30 lbs of rock in there so the smaller fish had some hiding spots.my achilles bit off my purple and foxfaces tails half off.in the empty hypo tank.
i got an ammonia spike of .25 from the dieoff of just 25 lbs of rock.so 300 lbs will kill the fish for sure.
i finally have one more week to put the rock back in the tank and the copper has been removed for a week now and still have 3 big bags of carbon in there.
6 weeks seems like forever.
How long did you leave the display tank at 1.009? Did the rise in ammonia result from the hyposalinity or copper? I used cuppermine and had no problem with a rise in ammonia. The problem I had with cuppermine is the levels would constantly sink way below prescribed levels on a daily basis. Also, some of the fish did not like the copper.
I've started to lower the salinity levels. I'm going to lower them over a 36-48 hour span to 1.009. They currently are at 1.015

 

[rcreations]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3073727
If I were you I would just add my top off water with a saltwater solution of 1.025 or greater and take as long as needed to return to your normal state of salinity
That would take a looooong time. Maybe his children can continue on with this project.

 

[deejeff442]

salinity was at 1.008-1.009 for 5 weeks .
the copper did go down in the tank with the lr and sand but i checked twice a day and added as needed.
you are right about the copper effecting fish.
i lost my goldflake angel two weeks ago in there.he just stopped eating.
got skinny and died.i took the copper out 2 days before he died but it was too late.the copper is out now for over a week and the rest of my fish are doing great.
i remember a long time ago i had to copper a tank with an emporer in it and he died also so maybe angels cant take the copper like a puffer?
the copper was in the tank for 4 weeks and now its been a week with it out and no signs of ich.1 more week for the lr.

 

[roberteb]

I just did another 44 gallon freshwater exchange and my salinity has dropped to 1.011. I will do the final water change tonight to get salinity to 1.009.
Ammonia is at 0.
pH is at 8.2-8.3
All fish are behaving "normal". My yellow tangs, which did not do well at all during Cuppermine treatment, are picking at rock work and just being themselves. When I used copper, they always hid in the rock work and appeared to have burst blood vessels under their skin. They rarely ate as well. As soon as I got rid of the copper they perked up. At this point, I will never again use copper again.
One question.
On my last water change, which I will perform tonight, will there be any negative affect if it drops to 1.007 or 1.008? And if it does, should I immediately try to get it up to 1.009?

 

[locoyo386]

Originally Posted by roberteb
http:///forum/post/3074471
I just did another 44 gallon freshwater exchange and my salinity has dropped to 1.011. I will do the final water change tonight to get salinity to 1.009.
Ammonia is at 0.
pH is at 8.2-8.3
All fish are behaving "normal". My yellow tangs, which did not do well at all during Cuppermine treatment, are picking at rock work and just being themselves. When I used copper, they always hid in the rock work and appeared to have burst blood vessels under their skin. They rarely ate as well. As soon as I got rid of the copper they perked up. At this point, I will never again use copper again.
One question.
On my last water change, which I will perform tonight, will there be any negative affect if it drops to 1.007 or 1.008? And if it does, should I immediately try to get it up to 1.009?
Hi there,
No need to be off from 1.009, just change 55 gallons and at your current SG of 1.011 you should be at exactly 1.009. I do think it is bad for fish to be at very low salinity for a long time. Also note that lower salt levels means that the fish's body has to work less so they will appear less stressed and more happy. When bringing the salt level back do it very slowly as the appossite will happen. Their badies will need to start working harder and they will be stresses from the increased level of salt.

 

[locoyo386]

Originally Posted by RCreations
http:///forum/post/3073796
That would take a looooong time. Maybe his children can continue on with this project.

Hid did say 1.025 or GREATER, but none the less it will take time.

 

[beth]

Hopefully after this you will see the wisdom in qurantining all in-coming fish.

 

[roberteb]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3074598
Hopefully after this you will see the wisdom in qurantining all in-coming fish.
Yes I have. I will no longer be adding anymore fish to this tank until I have a suitable quarantine setup.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by roberteb
http:///forum/post/3074471
One question.
On my last water change, which I will perform tonight, will there be any negative affect if it drops to 1.007 or 1.008? And if it does, should I immediately try to get it up to 1.009?
No, they will be fine. I just finished hyposalinity for four weeks on a Scopas tang. The last week I kept the SG at 1.007. No particular research involved in that. I just wanted to be certain that if any ich was to be "late bloomers" that they would not be able to finish reproduction. My own small experiment to see how it worked. The fish did not show any effects at all. I am not encouraging you to leave it that low by any means. I checked on him quite frequently during that time. I am just saying that a day or two at a lower SG shouldn't be a problem. Just don't do top offs.

 

[locoyo386]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/3074772
No, they will be fine. I just finished hyposalinity for four weeks on a Scopas tang. The last week I kept the SG at 1.007. No particular research involved in that. I just wanted to be certain that if any ich was to be "late bloomers" that they would not be able to finish reproduction. My own small experiment to see how it worked. The fish did not show any effects at all. I am not encouraging you to leave it that low by any means. I checked on him quite frequently during that time. I am just saying that a day or two at a lower SG shouldn't be a problem. Just don't do top offs.
Hi there,
Was there a particular reason for bringing the sg to 1.007 and not keeping it at 1.009?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/3074893
Hi there,
Was there a particular reason for bringing the sg to 1.007 and not keeping it at 1.009?
Yes, I said it above. Being that tangs are very susceptible to ich I didn't want to take any chances. In the remote possibility that one single parasite may be waiting to reproduce, I dropped the SG down even further to be sure that it would be impossible for that one parasite to do so. We have had reports of hyposalinity being performed to the T by experienced hobbyists and the tang becoming reinfected when the SG is raised at the end of treatment. Again this is not something that I had found in a book somewhere it was just a theory that I came up with. Whether it had any effect or the parasites were already dead, I do not know. The SG is now at 1.014 and the fish has not had a spot and is behaving normally.
I used it as an example that the fish will be fine if the SG were to go below 1.009 for a short amount of time, which was the OP's concern. I am not encouraging others to try this. I watched the fish for any signs of discomfort or stress during that week. He showed none and behaved as usual. This was not my first hyposalinity treatment and I felt comfortable that I could experiment a little without causing harm to the fish.

 

[locoyo386]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/3075070
Yes, I said it above. Being that tangs are very susceptible to ich I didn't want to take any chances. In the remote possibility that one single parasite may be waiting to reproduce, I dropped the SG down even further to be sure that it would be impossible for that one parasite to do so. We have had reports of hyposalinity being performed to the T by experienced hobbyists and the tang becoming reinfected when the SG is raised at the end of treatment. Again this is not something that I had found in a book somewhere it was just a theory that I came up with. Whether it had any effect or the parasites were already dead, I do not know. The SG is now at 1.014 and the fish has not had a spot and is behaving normally.
I used it as an example that the fish will be fine if the SG were to go below 1.009 for a short amount of time, which was the OP's concern. I am not encouraging others to try this. I watched the fish for any signs of discomfort or stress during that week. He showed none and behaved as usual. This was not my first hyposalinity treatment and I felt comfortable that I could experiment a little without causing harm to the fish.
Interesting, I have read in several forums that hypo at 1.009 does not always work. I was right in thinking that was the reason for it, just was not sure. I have been looking for information that can explain that. Have you seen anything about it, about if the parasite can somehow survive a low level like 1.009?