RE: New Fish Dying - HELP

[lindalm]

I have a 36 gal. nano reef tank. The tank is 8 months old. I have 3 fish that have survived almost from the beginning. My water quality is good. I check it regularly and do bi-monthly water changes. I am having trouble keeping new fish alive. They survive 4 or 5 days then die. I do the 3 hour acclamation thing as suggested. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[miaheatlvr]

Originally Posted by Lindalm
I have a 36 gal. nano reef tank. The tank is 8 months old. I have 3 fish that have survived almost from the beginning. My water quality is good. I check it regularly and do bi-monthly water changes. I am having trouble keeping new fish alive. They survive 4 or 5 days then die. I do the 3 hour acclamation thing as suggested. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know you write that your water is good, but you really need to post your complete water perameters!

 

[ophiura]

Without your parameters, we have nowhere to start. Please include types of fish and setup info as well.

 

[isaac]

my understanding from what you said is that you changing water bi monthly?
I will change the water bi weekly and as the rest said water perimters?
whan you said aclimate for three hours, do you water dreep or just floting the bag in the tank?

 

[rudedog40]

Hey Lindalm, I'm in the same predicament as you. My tank isn't as old as yours, and it's a 55 instead of a 38, but it seems my tank won't let more than two fish live in it at any one time. I have all types of inverts (emarald crabs, sally lightfoot, CBS, green brittle, and various hermits and snails), plus a Puffer, chromis, and a SFE. They all seem pretty happy, eat well, and enjoy their surroundings. Over the last month and a half, I've tried to add a Xmas wrasse, royal gramma, and a maroon clown (not at the same time, tried the next fish after the previous one died), and I did the same as you - drip acclimated them in a seperate box for 3+ hours. They would last 3 - 5 days, then I'd find them dead at the bottom of the tank. All my major levels are fine, and I've been doing a 10% water change bi-weekly using RO water aereated for at least 24 hours. The wrasse came from an online store, and the gramma and clown came from two different LFS's in my area. The clown did end up being diseased (Brookynella), but the gramma seemed fine. The LFS said they had it in their tank for a week prior to me buying it. So if you can figure out why your tank can't take on another fish, let me know. I'm not spending anymore money on livestock until I can find some answers.

 

[ophiura]

Again, all of these "parameters are fine" should be posted, to ensure you are not missing anything. Of particular interest are the often overlooked alkalinity and calcium readings. If they are fine, then great...but until posted, no one will be able to really stay more on what is going on.

 

[rudedog40]

For me..
SG - 1.024 (refractometer)
Ph - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Alkalinity and calcium - never tested, however since I'm using RO water, those shouldn't be an issue. Plus if these levels were high, why are my current livestock thriving with no apparent issues? Especially with a green brittle star that doesn't do well in unbalanced environments.

 

[ophiura]

Alkalinity and calcium are DEFINITELY issues, RO or not. They are part of the critical and minimum readings to do on a tank. You should absolutely test those, as they directly impact your pH reading.
It is common in alkalinity issues to have new fish die. New fish add more CO2, increasing the acid load on the tank. Established fish are "acclimated" to these major drops but new fish are not and die. This typically occurs overnight.
The green brittlestars is exceedingly hardy for a star and not necessarily a good indicator of issues. Also the things that often kill fish may be very different from those that kill inverts.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by Isaac
my understanding from what you said is that you changing water bi monthly?
I will change the water bi weekly and as the rest said water perimters?
whan you said aclimate for three hours, do you water dreep or just floting the bag in the tank?
you change your water 2 times a week? that's a lot of salt...

 

[rudedog40]

My Ph readings have never flucuated from 8.2 since I started my tank. Everything I've read about calcium and Alkalinity had to do with Reef/Coral tanks, not FOWLR. I have all types of purple and green choroline growth on my LR. I've read this is a good indicator that calcium levels are right. I'll test for those, but again, if I had Alkalinty and calcium levels off the chart, I would assume my Ph levels would be bouncing around as well.

 

[ophiura]

Believe me...alkalinity and calcium are important in all tanks. I've worked with fish only, I've worked with reefs...I've seen a lot of things.
They are easy to test. If you don't want to, that is another thing, but it is one thing to check off to eliminate your problem and to start monitoring. Alkalinity and calcium relate to pH...and that is important in ALL systems. Just because your pH looks OK at one point in time, does not mean everything else is great. But it is up to you, I'm not going to argue.

 

[rudedog40]

Went and got the kits during lunch. The results:
Alkalinity - 11
Calcium - 480 - 500
Based on what I researched, the Alkalinity is falling within an adequate range (8 - 12). Could bring it down a little. But the Calcium is a little high (425 - 450). But would that level be high enough to kill off any new fish that's added to the tank? I've added several inverts at the same time as adding these various fish (the CBS was added with the Clown), and none of them seem to be affected. My wrasse was added the same time as the SFE, a pencil urchin, and a brittle star. The wrasse was the only fish that didn't survive.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
I have all types of purple and green choroline growth on my LR. I've read this is a good indicator that calcium levels are right. .

btw, i have coralline algae growing (or living at least) in a solution of water and white vinegar because i am trying to clean an overflow so i can sell it. i figured i could kill it at least with those, but no... it seems that it doesnt even need saltwater to live. no one really seems to know why coralline lives and grows so well. yes, we surmise that good levels help, but why wouldn't it die with fresh water and vinegar?

 

[renogaw]

edit: nm, reread

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Went and got the kits during lunch. The results:
Alkalinity - 11
Calcium - 480 - 500
Based on what I researched, the Alkalinity is falling within an adequate range (8 - 12). Could bring it down a little. But the Calcium is a little high (425 - 450). But would that level be high enough to kill off any new fish that's added to the tank? I've added several inverts at the same time as adding these various fish (the CBS was added with the Clown), and none of them seem to be affected. My wrasse was added the same time as the SFE, a pencil urchin, and a brittle star. The wrasse was the only fish that didn't survive.

Thanks for checking. It eliminates a problem, and that is what we hope to do

But I would recommend, if you have any inverts (esp echinoderms), to keep an eye on these levels over time.

 

[rudedog40]

So are my calcium levels too high? Everything I see for additives is for stuff to increase calcium levels. I don't see anything that helps to lower them. Or do you want calcium levels as high as you can get them?
Ok. If all my levels are acceptable, then what's killing the new fish? Am I just getting a bad batch of fish? The wrasse I kind of figured would be a problem. He came in from an online shipment, and didn't look too great when I was acclimating him. The royal gramma is perplexing, since my LFS had him for over a week, and he looked fine the first few days (was hiding, but I was told that was normal). The clown was a disaster from the start. The LFS only had him for a day, then after I put him in my tank, I realized he had Brookynella. He died after the second Formulin treatment. So I guess after being shifted from a shipment, to the LFS tank for one day, to my tank, then yanked out twice to do Formulin dips, it was too much for the guy.
What the rule of thumb for LFS purchases? If you see a fish you like, do you make sure the store has had it in their tank for at least a week or two before you commit to buying? Like another post says about LFS's, they're in it to make money. They aren't going to hold a fish for two weeks with no guarantee you'll come back to buy it. Not if someone walks in behind you looking for the same fish, and could care less if it got stressed out from a shipment. And I haven't found a store in my area that has a live guarantee. If it dies anytime after you leave the store, it's not their problem. They tell you they don't know how you acclimated, what you water params are, etc. Buying online gets you a guarantee, but it costs you $20 - $30 to get it shipped. That's the cost of buying a fish from a LFS.

 

[lindalm]

ph = 8.2 to 8.4
Amonia = 0
nitrite = 0
nitrate =
calcium = 280

 

[rudedog40]

Looks like your calcium levels are pretty low. What I've found is the norm should be between 425 - 450. You can get calcium buffer to raise that. Did you check your alkalinity yet?

 

[lindalm]

My salinity is 1.024. So is my calcium the problem with the dying fish. And if so, WHY????????????

 

[rudedog40]

Good question. Ophiura explained why alkalinity can affect new livestock, but didn't say what the effects of low calcium would be. Everything I've read about low calcium is that it affects coral and invert growth. Doesn't say how it affects fish. Did you ever check your alkalinity levels?
The only other suggestion I could give you is to find a LFS where you can observe the fish you want for a week to two weeks to insure it's healthy before you take it home. If it eats well and doesn't appear to have any illnesses after that period, take it home, follow the acclimation process, and see what happens. You could be just like me and have run into a bad batch of fish. That's the only explanation I can see for why mine have died off.