Red bug, dead bug. SPS'ers look.

dburr

Active Member
You may know of the new treatment of red mites that feed on SPS.
Well, i'm in my 5th hour of 6 and I can't see any on the corals. My only casualty is my cleaner shrimp and pods. I tried to get the shrimp out but I couldn't catch him. He is barely hanging on the rocks. Everything else looks great. I'm doing a 25% water change and carbon in an hour. Let you later how it went.
Dan
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Did you use a dip or are you saying that you have treated the whole tank?
What did you use?
From what I understand its some type of copepod, but they are still having trouble knowing how to deal with it.
Thomas
 

dburr

Active Member
I wish, I wish I could post the link, but you know.
Let me copy some stuff for you.
Ok, here is the moment many of you have been waiting for. We (myself and the volunteers) feel this medication is effective against red bugs, and probably safe enough to use in a home aquarium

The medication is a DOG heartworm medication called Interceptor, it is only available from a veterinarian with a prescription. The tablets used in the initial treatments were for large dogs, 51-100lbs. These tablets are just under 1 gram each and contain 23mg of Milbemycin Oxime, the rest of it is a lovely smelling beef flavor. This chemical is active against Nematodes (Heartworms in dogs) and select arthropods (some types of Mange in dogs). Luckily, our red bugs are one of those select arthropods. The tablets come 6 to a box.

The dosage used in an aquarium to kill redbugs is 25mg (0.025 grams) per 10 gallons of actual tank water . That is 25mg of the entire tablet. Each tablet in the pack of 6 will treat about 380 gallons. The tablets are ground with a mortar and pestle into a fine powder.

Do your very best to calculate your actual water volume. Take into consideration your sump, oversized plumbing and things like that. All of the initial tests were done with the estimated volume of live rock and live sand subtracted from the total gallons. You need to make sure that every part of the system that’s capable of holding water is treated. This means your refugium, the water inside your calcium reactor, the water inside your skimmer while it is not foaming.

Measure out the Interceptor on a very accurate scale that is capable of reading down to 0.001 grams. Remember, the dosage is 0.025grams per 10 gallons. For safety’s sake get as close as you possibly can. It has been pointed out that it may not be necessary to get down to the 1/1000th of a gram point when we are guessing on the actual water volume. This is an excellent point, however, since we are pretty much guessing our water volume, we should do our very best to make sure that we treat that guess accurately. We don’t want to over treat an over estimate.

Before adding the medication to your tank, turn off your skimmer (water needs to run through it, but you do not want it producing any bubbles. Remove any mechanical filtration if present. Remove any carbon if present. Turn off UV sterilizers and ozone generators.

Remove any shrimp or crabs that you want to save. They will have to stay out of the system for the duration of the treatment. Remember, that when you add them back to your tank, there is a slight chance that you will re-introduce the red bugs to your tank.

The medication is dissolved into some aquarium water (it is not easily soluble, you will have to stir for a while) and spread evenly across the surface of the water. Your tank should remain perfectly clear and look very normal the entire time. The bugs hang on well into the 4th and 5th hour of the treatment, dont be alarmed. Many of the bugs will hang on for days even after they are dead.
 

dburr

Active Member
If anything goes wrong during treatment perform a water change ASAP and add a large amount of carbon to your system.

After 6 hours, a 25% MINIMUM water change is performed and as much activated carbon as you can fit should be added to the tank. In the initial tests, crustaceans that were reintroduced to a tank after a 25% water change and carbon were unaffected by the medication.

The treatment needs to be peformed a MINIMUM of 3 times. We know it kills the bugs, but we don’t know enough about their lifecycle to determine if it kills them at every stage of their life. We have to assume that all of the most of the adults are killed in the first treatment. The goal of the second treatment is to clean up any left over adults, and any juveniles that have hatched out of eggs that might have been unaffected. The third treatment is a “just in case” treatment, its goal is to get any bugs that could have possibly survived the first two. I know that three treatments sounds scary, after the first one you will feel much more comfortable with it though.

The frequency of the treatments has yet to be fully determined. Some of the volunteers in the testing did the first two treatments 7 days apart with the 3rd treatment 14 days after the second. Some did 3 treatments 7 days apart. Personally, I have been doing 2 treatments 24 hours apart every 7 days. I will repeat this 4 times for a total of 8 treatments

The medication seems to be fairly safe, since we dont know the life cycle of the bug its best to err on the side of caution and treat several times. Pretend its an antibiotic, if your going to use it once, make sure you do the whole treatment process at least 3 times!!!
Some things to remember:
1. The ENTIRE system has to be treated. There could be bugs or bug larvae anywhere in your system. Do not take your refugium offline. Do not turn any part of your filtration off that will trap water. For example, if your skimmer is shut off, but has 1/2 gallon of water in it, that water needs to be treated!

2. You will probably kill off a lot of your pods, shrimps and crabs.

3. This medication has not been tested for very long. The bugs might come back. Like anything you put in your tank it could be toxic a year down the road.

4. The

[hr]
are for Large dogs, 50-100lbs. The dose is 25mg/10gal/6hrs

5. If the treatment is not successful and you still have bugs visible after the 1st treatment, make a slight adjustment to your dose and start over again. This was only necessary in 1 out of 7 systems tested. It was a very old, large and intricate system.

6. I am sure, someone, somewhere will overdose or do something wrong. I am sure that someone will blame a tank crash 6 months down the road on this medication. Remember, no one but yourself is responsible for that!!!!!
 

spsfreak100

Active Member
It seems like such a complicated way to get rid of these bugs when "Red Bugs" haven't even been proved to be parasitic or harm any corals.
Graham
 

dburr

Active Member
Their has been quite a few people now that have done this. So far they have gotten fantasic results. I am one of them.
I only saw them a month ago when someone saw them on a frag I traded. I HAD lots of bugs. I wondered why some were not extending.:notsure:
Man my shrimp is acting funny. Still walking around, prolly trying to escape. Maybe he'll hang on for another 20 mins till my water change. C'mon shrimp.:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
 

nm reef

Active Member
I'm not keeping very many SPS type corals yet but I am aware of the treatment for "red bugs" quoted above. It is a very interesting procedure but from what I've seen I must agree with graham...I don't believe the potential for problems warrents the procedure. Several hobbyists question the need for treatment of a "problem" that may not be that much of a actual problem.Are you attemtping to remove a proven parasite that has caused damage that you can verify? Information I've seen indicates healthy SPS corals with active populations of "red bugs"...at this point I'm more of a curious spectator gathering information.:thinking:
 

dburr

Active Member
It seems like such a complicated way to get rid of these bugs when "Red Bugs" haven't even been proved to be parasitic or harm any corals.
Well they keep stressing them so they don't extend. Some are now getting great extention hours after treatment.
For starters, they are a type of amphipod. I've included some pics for everyone to see. Dr. Shimek has observed them on an Acropora, under a microscope. From his observations, there appears to be no damage to the coral. Yet, many reefers I talk to have experienced tissue loss and bleaching in corals that become infested with them. They also seem to slow the growth of the colony significantly. Another interesting note about them is that they only seem to target Acropora, and are even specific in that genus. I, as well as others, have noted that Acropora yongei(Bali Green Slimer) and Acropora millepora's do not get infested with them. They do spread quickly to vulnerable Acro's, though. Small frags seem to die quickly, while larger colonies take longer.

Since the bleaching is not immediate, I asked Dr. Shimek whether the pods were feeding on the zooxanthallae. My reasoning was based on the fact that the coral slowly becomes more and more pale in coloration over time. Dr. Shimek noted that the algae is several layers deep within the tissue, and that it isn't likely that they are feeding on it. I'm currently thinking that they feed on the slime produced by the Acropora colony. This would explain why they are somewhat selective with which Acropora colonies they migrate to. Perhaps, this behavior is generally considered commensal in natural settings, but harmful in a captive system. In a natural setting, there are predatory controls and a larger area and variety for the amphipods to graze slime coatings. But in a captive system, there may not be a proper predatory control and the area for infestation is small and limited. So, the case could be that they are reproducing to such high densities, that the coral actually becomes irritated by their presence. This irritation could lead to stress, and eventual shutdown/death of the Acropora. Also, the slime offers many benefits to the coral, and the lack of it from overgrazing of pods may cause stress as well.

This is all simply speculation. Dr. Shimek states that in his opinion they are harmless. He states that the death of the coral is due to other reasons, and that perhaps the amphipods are there to clean up or take advantage of an already sick coral. I respect his opinion, and he may very well be right. But the thing that irks me is that so many reefkeepers have noted the same loss of color and eventual death of corals infected with these pods. It only occurs with corals infected with these pods. Furthermore, if something else was causing the stress, then wouldn't we see other types of sps experience the same type of stress? Why are all other corals growing with healthy coloration, and only those infected with the pods dying? Why are only Acroporas(with the exception of the two species noted above) bleaching and dying in all the tanks infested with these pods. I find it hard to believe that all the reefers that have contacted me, are all just experiencing these effects due to other stressors, and coincidentally it only affects certain Acroporas (Meanwhile, assuming that the pods have nothing to do with it, even though the only corals that are dying are those exact same targeted by the pods). Again, I'm just speculating and brainstorming here.

So let me quickly sum up what I observe in my tank. These pods migrate quickly from Acropora to Acropora. Once a colony or frag becomes infested, it eventually begins to lose coloration(particularly the browns attributed to the zoo's). Eventually, the colony/frag loses tissue and dies. The pods only seem to target Acroporas, with the notable exception of yongei and millepora seeming to be immune. I've examined other corals with a magnifying glass and they do not appear to be present. I've tried a mandarin for eradicating them, but no success. I have not tried any of the wrasses
Yes, you MAY be right. I don't want to take that chance. This is new, yes, but all the tanks survived so far, minus some pods.
Dan
 

dburr

Active Member
how did you measure the heartworm med so low?
I know someone who has a scale to measure gun powder. You can take it to a vet, pharmasist, ect... Just tell him what your doing.
Gotta go do my change.
 

nm reef

Active Member
Definitely keep us posted on how things work out. Like I said I'm aware of the procedure as many others here are...very interesting topic.
I didn't intend my response to be critical...its just sort of new to me and there is conflicting information for the need of such a radical treatment.
There has also been some recent threads on using a iodine dip to prevent transfering such parasites on new coral additions. I've kept a bottle of Seachem Iodine for addition to drip acclimation of new corals and so far I've never had a parasite problem. I don't know if I've simply been lucky or if the diluted iodine solution while drip acclimating has worked.:thinking:
 

dburr

Active Member
I didn't intend my response to be critical
I did not take it that way at all. It is VERY debatable to say the least.
My shrimp is BARELY hagging on. I hate to see critters like this, but you can't say I didn't try.
I had about a half dozon colonies with the bugs. Right now I see 0. Fish, cucumber, worms, snails, other corals, feather duster all acting normal. My refuge is alittle stirred up so I can't say if I still have alot of pods.
 
Are you going to buy new live rock to reintroduce your pod population? Or don't you think you killed all of your good pods?
 

spsfreak100

Active Member
Dburr,
It is VERY debatable to say the least.
I completely agree, esspecially considering no one has very much scientific information (which can be backed up upon facts rather than opinions or experiences) about these bugs. With that said, the below was from my experiences.
I have had several Acroporids infested with these amphipods. I will agree with you about the polyp extention -- I have seen a decline in polyp extension in a few of the specimens. However, I do not beleive that the slightly retracted polyps were having any negative effect on the corals. All of them have shown great growth and coloration.
I've actually seen these amphipods come and go over time. As an example, I have had an A. nana and A. horrida which were completely covered with red bugs. They grew fine and have shown great coloration. Several months later these bugs were completely gone without a trace. Later they came back, and like the first incident, they were completely gone within a month.
I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything you stated. Although, I certainly do not think you need to go to such an extent to get rid of the amphipods simply based on others experiences.
Anyway, I would be interested in hearing updates on how this went.
Take Care,
Graham :)
 

dburr

Active Member
The shrimp is still alive. Barely moving, but I think he will pull thru.
Are you going to buy new live rock to reintroduce your pod population? Or don't you think you killed all of your good pods?
I still have pods, not a whole lot like I used to have. They will come back.
Graham: I will keep you posted. Thanks for your input, three doses is what they suggest, I may or may not do another. I want to see how others are doing first. If I don't see any bugs or if others don't see any after first dose, I may think twice. Of coarse 1 dose could have just lowered their numbers.:notsure:
Edit: shrimp is dead.
 
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