reef aquatic landscapers advice needed

[sgt__york]

Howdy all... system has been up and running almost 6months now. You can see the inhabitants on my signature below. I would like to start getting some additional corals now - and thought i'd ask for some nice overall advice.
My desire is to stay w/fairly hearty corals - not exotic nor highly delicate pieces. I am looking for variety in color and texture contrasts (and obviously things that get along together). It is nice to start with some fairly small things - so they have room to grow.
My landscape rock setup is something like this - 2 levels of rock - the first is basically 3 "tables" - bouldered rock with flat tonga on top like a table. so there are 3 "shelves" in which to sit things on about 1/3 up from the bottom. On the back of the tables is a bricked boulder arrangement that ha room to put things on at a few different levels - mostly 2/3 of the way up from the bottom.
As you can see - i've kept my bio load fairly low. Even w/o a waterchange in 4.5 months all my water parameters still register quite very well. I do not have the least amount of hair algae. I am getting ready to do a 25% water change just for trace elements - and let that settle as I prepare for what to get in the way of corals.
What do you guyz recommend as a good starting point? More muchrooms and more variety? (btw, is it a BAD thing to have a "LOT" of ur substrate covered with mushrooms and such - or is a lot of access recommended for hermits and other criters?) Would you start with leathers - some bubble type of corals? stay with soft corals - or go ahead and try a few hard corals? What type of package - or group of corals would some of you recommend - who have had tanks up for some time - and have had success with various corals?
As said i'm after color and texture differences - and really enjoy wave-like movement that shows currents. I do "NOT" want any anemonias - altho i think they are cool and wonderful - i don't like them moving - and the high toxic levels they give off whenever they do perish.
I'm probably look'n to drop $200-$500 or so on some corals now - and your recommendations (i'll go find some pics) would be MOST appreciated. Hope to hear from several of you regular hobby'sts who have been around forever - and appreciate ur advice from a starting landscaped perspective.

 

[sgt__york]

*bump*

 

[mlm]

With your lighting you could do a varity of hard and soft corals but probbaly not any sps or clams unless you keep them at the very top right under the water level. If I were you I would start of with some nice leather corals and see how that goes. It should be fine since your tank has been set up almost a year now. If the leather does fine then mayve you can try some LPS corals but remeber they do not like a strong current so keep them someplace with limited current or they may not expand correctly. It is not a bad theing to have a lot of the substrate covered. The more cover the less room for algea to take a foothold in the tank.

 

[hondo]

For corals that sway and move with the water current go with a Toadstool. Some great LPS are bubbles or hammers. Pulsing xenia is a great looking swaying coral but can be considered a weed by some people. tree corals are also nice looking. All of these are pretty hardy and should do well in your tank. Open brains are great for color especially green/purple weslophyllia.

 

[j21kickster]

personally i love the unique zooanthids i have recently placed an order for many more but here is a pic on my newest

 

[j21kickster]

here is my capnella aka tree coral

 

[j21kickster]

ricordea mushrooms are awsome too- nice color and hardy

 

[slothy]

my green ric's

 

[slothy]

and bang guy special orange ric's

 

[debbers]

Nice zoo's!! Did you pick them up at your LFS or find them online? I never see any cool zoo's at my LFS's.

 

[j21kickster]

got them at the lfs- it is rare to see such colors in a petstore

 

[sgt__york]

Thanks for some of the insight - after looking around a lot - a few more specific questions
SOFT vs HARD corals
Is it generally safe to say soft corals are easier to keep (hardier)? Is it just a matter of hard corals needing the calcium levels to be maintained? If a hard coral begins to receed - and his exoskeloton is revealed - is just a slippery slope to death - or can they actually rejuvinate themselves over it? (i've heard LFS's saying they an - but i've heard many others say - they cannot - because the skeloton once exposed to the light - begins to grow bacteria on it - and the coral won't regrow in that area) How difficult is it to make sure u do not get hard corals to expose their skelotins then??
ATTACHMENT
I see many coarl tanks that seem to have the corals off to the side of an opening. is "coral GLUING" a very common practice - and is this how that is achieved? besides sitting a coral on a shelf - or rock wedged - is this a very common practice?
XENIA
What are experienced people's thoughts on Xenia? I've heard some say they are quite beautiful (some of thep ics i've seen are nice) - but i've heard others compare them to weeds.
Is this b/c they are so hearty? Or perhaps b/c they grow/expand perhaps TOO readily?? What is the story on these guyz. (EXAMPLE - anemonia can be beautiful - but the experienced reefer realizes their movement can cause problems and their HIGH toxic output when they pass can destroy an entire reef - causing them to be avoided by stocked reef tanks) (EX2 - as beautiful as bubble algea is - it can become out of control - and spread much more readily than it can be removed from the tank - causing it to become a pain - inability to remove it) Any other such wisdoms of experience??
For those that like Xenia - what are some of ur favorites (or ones to avoid) What do you think about the POM POM Xenia?
CORAL SIZE
Is it a good idea to always buy "medium" stocked corals - as the smaller ones may die off - OR are some FRAG/small "Packages" really worth going for?
EX: http://www.tropicorium.com/tsoft_corals.html
package #4
People's thoughts on a setup like this?
SOME CORALS I'VE BEEN WISHLISTING LATELY - any thoughts on some of these - either INDIVIDUALLY (problems/etc) or even COLLECTIVELY (some not getting along; etc) too many of a 'similar' type that might also need to be avoided.
** any that jump out as problematic or difficult to keep, etc...
Yellow Leather - i'm thinking i should choose BETWEEN the following - as no use having too many "similar" types of corals
- Devils yellow finger
- yellow tonga leather
- Yellow Crown of Thorn Finger Leather
- yellow toadstool leather
* not quite sure how to choose b/t such 'similar' corals (esp if ordering onlie)
Purple Tipped Frogspawn
Green hammer branch coral
Flourescent Green spagetti Leather
Purple Tree Colt Coral
green bubble coral
Blue Sponge
metallic Green Flat Brain (wellsophylia) & red open brain (trachiphylia)
Purple Acrypora - comes in (Tri color, Blue, Purple, Yellow, Fluorescent Green, Blue Tipped, Purple Tipped) - not sure what color
Purple tipped eleghance (i know must keep 3" away from all else)
Purple Gonipora
Orange Soft Coral
Purple (tonga) mushroom
Purple Gargonia
Blue Palm Soft coral
Orange (red and pink) Polyp colony
orange feather duster colony
Fox Coral
Orange Ricordea florida
Bright Green Zoonathids
Is this list (if everything went together well) an OVER stocked 75 gal? or would this all go together well? And NO, iwouldn't add it all at the same time.. lol I'm just try'n to get a feel for the entire tank - and build up to it.
Any advice on this list - order of choices - duplicated type of corals - problematic corals - overuse of a color or texture, etc would be greatly appreciated.
I've had a tank in the past - but never had more than 5 corals - ie, more of a FISH tank than a reef tank.
experienced reefer's views/opinions GREATLY appreciated

 

[hondo]

there are easy to keep soft and hard corals just like hard to keep soft and hard. Hard do need more calcium especially SPS like the acro's you mentioned. I would stay away from those unless you are upgrading your lights as they need real intense light like MH lighting.
pretty much all you mentioned are good corals to keep and are hardy with the exception of the elegance. a beautiful coral but I read allot about them dying on people and some kind of new disease with them. I have no facts but do a search and you'll see what I'm talking about.
As far as overstocking goes just do your research and make sure your more aggressive corals have room to spread out without stining something especially frogspan and hammers. My green branching hammer is very agressive and polyps will suddenly go from 3" to over 6" to sting a nearby coral that I thought was safe. I wouldn't discourage you from getting one as this is one of my favorites and is now hosting my 3 year old false perc. as long as you can fit them in with some room to spread and grow then you are not over stocked. be careful of chemical warfare with the leathers and tree corals as that is hit and miss sometime it happens sometimes it doesn't.
Xenia is something I like but I only have one small patch of pulsing at the moment and to be honest everyones comments about how fast it can spread has kept me from getting some pom pom. seems like some tanks it grows like crazy and some it doesn't. Mine has stayed the same size for 8 months and is healthy but not spreading, no idea why. If you like it buy it as worst comes to worst you can sell, trade, or flush the extra if it becomes a problem

 

[sgt__york]

Hammer, thanks a bunch
The elegance is pretty - but i wouldn't be heartbroken to leave that one alone - sounds like it falls in the same category as an anemonie (re heartiness and toxicity)
You didn't really address the hard coral skeleton problem. I have conflicting info re when a coral has died off a bit, and begins to show it's skeleton. The LFS says they can rejuvinate and regrow back into that (of course he's trying to sell them). I've heard other ppl say, once it is exposed to the light - like LR, it begins to grow algae on it - and once that happens the coral never regrows back onto it - and often the coral is in a slow spiral death journey. Do you have any info on this?
RE: Leathers vs Tree corals - you mentioned chemical warfare. Wow - hard to imagine not having both - as there are so many varieties of each. Do most ppl stay with one or the other? Is there anything you can do to help PREVENT such chemical warfare?? I know they say don't put 2 tangs togther - but TONS of ppl (including myself) do it successfully - but there are certain rules of thumbs that greatly help (ie, diff body shapes, more dosil tang larger in size; etc) Are there are rules of thumb to help allow tree corals and leathers to get along better? Distances apart that allow better cohabitation?
In the given list above - if u throw out the acro and elegance - would you recommend a certain ORDER to them? Or can they be classified better as far as 'aggresiveness' to anything else?
What kind of Xenia do you have (since not pom pom). Has anyoen else had success with not having pom pom grow out of control?

 

[sgt__york]

*bump*

 

[slowest is fastest]

FWIW
Pom Pom Xenia especially ones from the Red Sea grow very slowly in comparison to the other varieties. Where one stalk of the brown can spead(or be forced) to 20+ stalks in just a few months, a single 2" tall stalk of Pom Pom can take six months to grown a 6" single stalk with a 3" globe.
Xenia in all forms responds to the level of care it recieves. The more you mess with it the better it does. Put it in the light with current, good water with nothing around it and it will grow. Put it under good lighting, water and current with a little help can quickly become the "weed" in anyones tank.
SiF

 

[quazi]

SIF, I object to your contention that Xenia can become a weed in anyone's tank. I cannot grow it due to chemical warfare from one of my tank's inhabitances (probably a sacrophyton, but I am not sure.)
St. York, I have had LPS recede and come back. Frankly, if you treat corals right, they should not recede, and do not buy them from your LFS if they are. However, I have neglected my tank from time to time and have had some recession. They came back.
One of the most important things you can do, and one of the cheapest, is drip kalkwasser. It will handle calcium and alk levels to most extents. You may have to add calcium if you put a lot of LPS or SPS in your tank.
As for chemical warfare, you will have to find out the hard way what attacks what. It is not just chemical warfare, but physical warfare from "arms" reaching out and stinging inhabitants.
Incidentally, you probably have enough light for some SPS. I have 3 vhos on my 55 and my SPS grows just fine!

 

[jonthefb]

sgt, great questions and its good to see you asking questions before you make your purchase.
as far as the lps tissue recession thing goes, i have to say that it depends. For example, i purchased a red open brain(Trachyphyillia) from my lfs that was very stressed. his tissue was constricted and parts of skeleton began to stich through the tissue. i purchased him for cheap, with the hopes of bringing hiim back to life, and that hopefully he was only stressing. after i brought him home, he looked virtually th esame for about a week and i really didnt think he was going to make it. however the second week, he went through a huge explosions where all the tissue expanded like a baloon, and color came back right away. ever since he has been doing fantastic in the tank. The one thing that i do for all new purchases is to dip them in an iodine bath. this hels to kill off any bacterial infections the poor little guys have clinging to them. I have used seachem's reef dip with great success, and it might be worthwile for you to get a bottle of this, as a prophylactic means, as well as a future treatment aid, since you are planning on gettign a large amount of corals. On the other hand, i have seen long tentacled plate corals that develop are damaged, or have skeleton showing that die very rapidly due to a bacterial infection. If you have a piece in mind, ask your lfs to hold it for you for awhile so that you can see how its doing.
As far as your list is concerned, the only corals i see a problem with are teh yellow tonga leatehr, elegance, and purple gonioporra. and here is my reasoning:
the yellow tonga/fiji leather, although very beautiful, is probably one of the hardest leathers to keep in an enclosed system. THey require very intense light to survive. i personally have tried a couple, one under pc's the other under halides, adn neither made it. i dont know if they handle shipping well, but from what ive heard and experienced, these guys just arent suitable for a home aquarium.
elegance. These guys actually inhabit seagrass sand zones in the wild, and therefore placing them in the middle of a reef liek structure is unnatural in captivity. In the early 90's they used to be one of the easiest lps corals to keep however now there are reports of some type of bacteria, that this coral carries that causes high mortality rates in captivity. I guess you buy your ticket and take your chances. I personally wouldnt go for one of these guys simply cause they arent designed to be in a reef tank, however again, thats JMO!
Purple Goniopora. Gonipporas typically also have a very poor survival rate in captivity. most colonies will flourish for about 6 mos to a year but after that will slowly loose tissue until the colony is dead. On the other hand there are reports of colony reproducign in aquaria, and the waikiki aquarium has a specimen that is 3 years old i think (but they flush their system with NSW too) They seem to do best in tanks that dont use heavy protein skimming, but again you buy your ticket and take your chances. i wish people would stop buying them so that they would stop dying!
AS far as teh rest of your list is concerned, the acro is gonna need pretty intense light, whcih you could no doubt accomplish by placing the colony higher in the tank. I think for the most part you have a wonderful selection of corals planned that should make for a lovely tank. Just make sure to space the corals accordignly and youll have no porblem. You can group corals of the same family such as the Euphyllia family (torch, forgspawn, achor) and so you can have these gusy all touching each other, and polyps intermingled. its actually quite breathtaking to see this occur in the aquarium! Id say start with small to medium corals so that you can witness their growth, but again if there is a super sweet large colony, get it and make it your centerpiece. Just be reasonable about your purchase, dont add them all at once, buy a ca and alk test kit and monitor your level frequently, and most importantly have fun! thats what this hobby is all about!
now about the xenia. i love em! i love how they pulse and sway in the current. I have two different types iin my tank. One which is kinda pinkish/bluetipped, that was a colony form my 135, the other of which is a red sea xenia, with very feathery tentacles, that pulses liek crazy. They do grow quick, but its an easy way to fund your hobby if your taking frags to your lfs all the time!
good luck Sgt!
jon

 

[slowest is fastest]

I do not want this thread to stray to far off topic so I will make this comment and no more regarding my Xenia statement.
Objection over-ruled The statement I made regarding the Xenia is I believe right on. If you have a tank with good water quality, lighting and current and a little help ANYONE can grow Xenia like a weed.
quazi
FWIW I will offer up that I have Xenia touching several different kinds of leathers with no problems. To further that I regularly set up Sarcophyton sp cuttings. Currently I have 10 fresh cuttings in one of my propagation tanks (along with about 10 differenent other fresh cuttings) and there is no adverse reaction regarding the health of any of the Xenia including Pom Pom, common brown, silver tipped, and Giant Anthelia. While "chemical warfare" can have detrimental effects on all corals I think you might want to look toward a different coral for the problems your experiencing.
sgt york
Sounds like you are well on your way there is good info above...good luck.
Regards
SiF

 

[sgt__york]

Jon (and others)
thanks a lot - exactly the type of info I am looking for. I like to have things mapped out a bit before proceeding. I view a reef tank as a somewhat acquatic garden. makes no sense to bury a small, slow growing coral "behind" a larger, faster growing coral - where it can't be seen.. etc..
I like to learn from others experiences as well. I also know my strengths and weaknesses - and do NOT want a coral i have to hand feed daily - that is asking for failure for myself AND the coral.
Jon, thanks for mentioning some of the corals that "CAN" touch each other w/o stinging each other - that type of info is very helpful as well.
Regarding CHECMICAL warfare- how far do these types of things stretch? or is just a toxin in the water that affects the entire tank due to circulation?? No offense, i know a lot ofyou have bought corals and lost them due to various things (short lifespans, chemical warfare, stings, etc) - and well - I aim to learn off your mistakes lol
Was raised - a "smart" man learns from his mistakes. A "wise" man learns from OTHER peoples mistakes hahah I've made my share tho - and sure i'll make plenty more. Lord help the corals that see me coming. lol
I will try to get a pic up sometime of what i have so far - i tried to arrange my rock in a bleacher style structure - so i could have shelving to house corals - and stil lhave various tunnels for fish to go thru. I don't have a good digital camera - just a webcam - but i'll do the best i can.
RE Elegance - good info jon - as said, it wouldn't break my heart to leave that one off either. I really like the frogspawn and would like to make it somewhat of a centerpiece. I like the shapes and colors the leathers give. And i like the wave movement and polyp interactions of the tree and soft corals.
I'm gunna take another couple weeks to get a calcium system setup - and see hwo it maintains before getting a few corals. I'll likely get 2-5 at a time - maybe see if there is a good Xmas Special around. I have not been imprssed with the LFS's stock, quality or pricing.
Question: How many ppl run a magnum all the time? Use to, I thought it wasjust for water polishing. Is it a good thng to run all the time? Will it remove much in the way of nutrients in the water (if you just use a mechanical filter)?