REEF DYING (significant emotional event!)

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Last year I set up a 60g hex tank with 60 lbs of live rock, and 60 lbs of live sand. The tank had cycled, and had the fist two corals in it when the first catastrophe hit. The seam split and squirted 25 gallons of salt water all over my wall and rug before I was able to stop it. The only answer was to replace the tank so.....
The guy at the lfs was super about it he had a new tank flown in for me in 2 days. I kept the live rock in the same water with a powerhead on it, and transported the corals to my 75g fowlr tank. I installed the same light for there lighting requirements, and continued to add the supplements. The only problem with that scenerio is that when I moved the coral to the fish only tank it displaced my yellow tang out of its home, and caused it to rumble with the other fish which got its fins nipped pretty badly.....
The new tank got up and running, with the same lr, and ls and went though another although somewhat shorter cycle process. The tang healed, although very slowly, and everything went back to normal. Over time we eventually added several leathers, some discs, some xenia,some snails, some hermits, a comet, a sandsifter, a bicolor blennie, a manderin, and a powder brown surgeon, and a sandsifter...
Thet all lived happily for a few months, where they ate bloodworms, and lifeline, just the proper amount twice a day, and got regular water changes. 15% every 3 weeks. Testing was done regularly. The protein skimmer was skimming well, and the wet dry was fuctioning normally. Temp was 76-77 degrees and the supplements were all added on a daily basis. (alkalinity+, hardness+,Lifo, iodine twice a week, and something calle y2k 2 1/2 oz once a week)...
I usually tested with a drop test but I thought for checking ammonia quickly a dip test would due. For several weeks in a row ammonia tested zero, and nitrite tested zero, calcium was good, phosphate was good, copper was neg, nitrate was low, and ph was 8.2...
I woke up last saturday, and my surgeon was dead, and so was my blennie. I completed a drop test for amonia and it indicated .50, again I did the dip test and it indicated 0. I would say the night before I noticed the surgeon was more secretive then usual, and he had what I would call white funk around his eyes, and black blotches on his normaly brown body. My maderin succommed to the same fate on Monday...
I've completed 3 water changes this week. Ammonia is down to trace levels (less than .1) but nitrite which was zero before is now .2. This morning my discs are shrivelled, my furry discs have died (distinigrated), and My sandsifter is dead.
Does anyone know what I can do, and what got the ammonia so far out of wack to begin with????
I'm down to the Comet, my leathers, and some discs. How can I save them, and the Tank???? Is this ammonia toxicity, or some other disease sweeping through my tank????
Please Help!!!
 
have you done anything recently to cause your tank to start to cycle?
If you have any amount of trites or ammo in your tank, you are playing with fire.
I would recommend a 25% waterchange daily until ammo and trites read 0.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.
 
also, not to say exactly what killed your fish, but with toxins in the water, the fish are more succeptible to bacterial or fungal infections, which is my guess as to what did in your fish.
Watch your other fish closely. if they show similar symptoms, a freshwater dip may be in order.
 

fishymissy

Member
First off the diet you are feeding your fish is not adequate for the ones you have. Bloodworms if fed at all, at least should not be used regularly for marine fish. You need to buy some frozen foods made for saltwater fish like brine, krill, clams, formula 1, etc.....also for all tangs, you should be providing nori at least every other day. Mandarins are notorious for not eating any kind of prepared foods in captivity, and really should only be kept in tanks with a large amount of LR to support the copepods they require. I think at least 100lbs of LR is needed, or you could set up a refugium to propagate copepods in. Poor nutrition can lead the way for disease.
As far as the ammonia and nitrite problems, are you sure something didn't die in the tank, and you haven't found it yet? That would cause a spike to occur. Best thing to do is as suggested before, daily water changes and when you do, make sure salinity, ph, etc....are all where they should be. Try taking a clean turkey baster or a clean plastic lid and blast out around your rocks when you do the water change and see if that helps.
I hope things work out for you!
 

kev

Member
Bloodworms arent ok for marine fish?!?! Are we talkin live bloodworms, or frozen prepared bloodworms made FOR SW fish...? Why would Bloodworms not be ok for them, I know alot of people that feed their fish frozen blood worms. Ive been feeding me fish a mixture of bloodworms, and brine (along with some seaweed for the tang), but mostly they eat bloodworms. Anyone else have input about bloodworms in the diet? :D
 

k.lee

Member
Originally posted by IV:XX:
<strong>Bloodworms arent ok for marine fish?!?! Are we talkin live bloodworms, or frozen prepared bloodworms made FOR SW fish...? Why would Bloodworms not be ok for them, I know alot of people that feed their fish frozen blood worms. Ive been feeding me fish a mixture of bloodworms, and brine (along with some seaweed for the tang), but mostly they eat bloodworms. Anyone else have input about bloodworms in the diet? :D </strong><hr></blockquote>
High cholesterol/fat I think. :D
Bloodworms, I hear shoud be a treat for ANY fish fw or sw. HTH.
Lee
 
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They are frozen bloodworms prepared for marine fish. They go in the morning with this other mixture of frozen krill, and brine shrimp. At night they get this green frozen cube food called lifeline. Lifeline mostly supports the algae and plant food requirements for the tang, but the rest of the guys eat it too. My mandarin was not showing any signs of disease prior to the other two fish dying, and he (assuming he) was eating the bloodworms regularly with the other fish. I have been giving this same food regimen to my other 75g folwr for a year and everyone in that tank is doing fine. The fish really go nuts for the bloodworms, and if they are not nutritionally sound, there is sure no signs of it in the other tank. I would like to discuss nutrition more, so I would certainly be exited to read more of others thoughts on bloodworms.
 

fishymissy

Member
Bloodworms are a larvae of a fly that is found in stagnent freshwater swamps. Not a marine based food. There has even been links to impacted guts in freshwater fish that have been fed heavily on them. Young discus (freshwater) are especially prone to digestive problems because of this.
I will say that IMHO marine fish need marine foods. If you still want to feed them the bloodworms, that is your choice, but I wouldn't do it myself, except maybe as a treat.
Just because the fish love it doesn't mean it's good for them......I love potato chips myself ;)
There have been occasions where I have read that a mandarin was eating something besides live copepods, but it is a rare event. If you never saw him eating, then he wasn't.
I'm wondering if what started the whole thing was a couple of snails dying and it fouled the water? Are all animals accounted for?
 

ky

Member
What kind of water are you using. When I first started I used a DI unit that I bought on sale. Right after I used it, everything in my tank died. Right after I bought an RO/DI unit, that way I know that they aren't getting anything but H and O. I don't know very much about toxins in the water, but maybe it's some sort of bacteria or virus. I have a UV steralizer on each of my tanks, so I don't have that problem either. I it was my tank, I would pray to the fish gods, get a UV steralizer to kill any fungus, virus, or bacteria, Get an RO/DI unit to make sure that they were getting pure water, and get some sort of carbon filter to remove any toxins present. That would rid any problems that there could be.
 
Are you still in a 60 hex? or different tank. If your in the hex still is your do you have enough circlation to make sure all food is being filtered.
As for blood worms, I feed them to any fish that need to gain weight. My reef I feed once week brine, or baby brine to watch my fish eat. My tang died last week in the power head so I haven't feed the tank in awile. I also breed discus feeding them blood worms once a week to add fat so the will gain weight. Also feed blackworms, Live white worms, And Live Baby brine. So if you verya fish's diet much like you own you will have now problems. And YES I did feed tangs blood worms when they come in under weight when I worked for a pet store.
 

ky

Member
I really don't think that this is a food problem. Unless you got a bucket full of skunky blood worms, simply feeding them wouldn't kill everything. I've never seen the nutritional breakdown of blood worms, but I've never read that they can be harmful, even deadly. I mean, my dry food has soybean meal, wheat germ, and ground brown rice in it. Last I checked, those don't grow in the ocean and they aren't toxic to fish. Show me some reliable literature proving the that they are harmful to marine fish and I'll never use them again. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I think that it is a water problem, not a food problem.
 

josh

Active Member
Hi,
Well since no one else mentioned it I would run a round of carbon and get yourself a poly filter. That will help you get whatever is in there out!!!! Also, with the poly you will be able to see if there were any metals in the tank and get a general idea of what's going on by the color change of the filter.
GOOD LUCK
-Josh-
 
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I tend to agree with this being a water issue, and not a diet issue. If it had anything to do with the diet, it would be reasonable to asume that the fish in the other tank, that eat the exact same food , would be dying as well, or at least showing signs of stress. The other fish in the 75g fowlr are showing no signs of stress, illness, etc... Additionally the water perameters in the 75g are perfect (0 amonnia, o nitrites, trace almost unmeasureable amounts of nitrates, 8.2 ph, 78Degrees, 1.023 specific gravity) Now a couple or points here: 1) I understand that when you are talking reef:fish only thats mixing apples and oranges a bit, I only bring up the fish only tank because I feed the same diet so I feel if diet had anything to do with the fish dying, or the water parameters going out of whack, there would be some evidence of that in the other tank. 2) Since we on the subject of diet I would really be intersted in what everyone thinks is a good choice... As far as nutritional requirements for the tang I/m sticking with the Lifeline herbavore minced. (known to my wife and I as the green stuff) It contains everything that is recomended for tangs, and is packed with vitamins. The guy at the LFS recomends it, and he even goes to the airport personally to pick it up, so I think its a good choice. As far as bloodworms go, I had no idea that they were such a contraversial issue. So I guess that particular item merits more research on my part, However I will say that The manderin definitly ate them whatever anyone says I watched him do it, everyday, It wasn't just my interpretation or an assumption....I saw it, repeatedly, over and over and over again...My word to God's ear....HE ATE THEM!!!!!!!!Apearantly it wasn't any good for him, But, My ammonia level was at deadly amounts, and he's dead anyway so I really can't do anything now except for maybe not buy anymore bloodworms in the future depending on what I think after my research. I will say based on what I've read from all your help, I will probably discontinue their use aside from the occasional snack.
That having been said, with bloodworms out of the loop what else should I use. I have some of this REEF Strogonoff that contains krill, and squid, and vitamins, and some other trace elements, and everyone seems to like that. I was thinking of feeding that in the morning and the green at night, but thats only my temporary plan, any thoughts anyone could lend on there own diet plans would be appreciated.
Lastly, I have been doing my water changes religiously, and the ammonia level is holding at zero, nitrites are somewhat steady at .2, Hopefully they will begin to fall soon. The only fish left now is the comet, who so far seems to be unaffected by everything. So just a side note if you really want a hardy fish get a comet or Sea Beta, I find them to be pretty, peaceful, a bit secretive but aparently indestructable like a Timex (poor guy took a lickin' and kept on tickin'). And all my leathers are still hanging in there. Hopefully with some more water changes, and patience I won't lose them or the comet.
Thank you everyone for your continued assistance, I hope the good advise keeps on coming.....
Thanx
 

fishymissy

Member
I need to clarify a few things....I never said your fish died because of their diet. I was just pointing out that bloodworms should not make up a major portion of a marine fishes diet.The reason I was concerned is because in your first post you said "where they ate bloodworms, and lifeline, just the proper amount twice a day" <hr></blockquote>.....from that statement, bloodworms make up 50% of your fishes diet. You later modified your statement with "They are bloodworms prepared for marine fish. They go in the morning with this other mixture of frozen krill, and brine shrimp" <hr></blockquote>....so now it's down to approx., 16%...that's a big difference.
The next issue was partly my mistake, about the mandarin. You said "My mandarin was not showing any signs of disease prior to the other two fish dying, and he(assuming he) was eating the bloodworms...." <hr></blockquote>, you see when you said "assuming he", I thought you meant that you were assuming he was eating the bloodworms!! I did not know that you meant his ---! I believe you when you say that you saw him eat!!!! Can we still be friends? ;)
Again, I never said that the water problem was caused by diet. I did suggest that you keep up with water changes, blow out around the rocks, and make sure all animals are present and accounted for. THAT'S what I think started the whole thing, some snails, perhaps a starfish or something that has been missing for awhile and is actually dead.
I sincerely hope that you find out the cause of your problems, good luck to you!
 
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