Reef Temp & Salinity By Shimek
- Thread starter tnreef
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luke
Member
Here is the main problem I see: No one does the research, and when they do it may be invalid!!!!!(please don't take this as an invitation not to research though)
If anyone wants to debate that...go for it, but it is true. No one has any idea where their specific speciman was collected. They probably don't even know the genus let alone the species. Making a general temp solves these problems. If you know that you have a coral that was collected in 85 degree temps, then I would say more power to you to keep it in that temp. But just because a book says that the species was found in 85 degree waters does not mean that the one, one buys was collected there.
Plus when you gat to temps that high, and you have one of these unexpected temp spikes (we have all had them), al of a sudden your tank is at 95 degrees!! There is less room for error.
(My two cents)
Luke
Please Note: When ever temp comes up in this hobby there is always a debate
If anyone wants to debate that...go for it, but it is true. No one has any idea where their specific speciman was collected. They probably don't even know the genus let alone the species. Making a general temp solves these problems. If you know that you have a coral that was collected in 85 degree temps, then I would say more power to you to keep it in that temp. But just because a book says that the species was found in 85 degree waters does not mean that the one, one buys was collected there.
Plus when you gat to temps that high, and you have one of these unexpected temp spikes (we have all had them), al of a sudden your tank is at 95 degrees!! There is less room for error.
(My two cents)
Luke
Please Note: When ever temp comes up in this hobby there is always a debate
ironreef
Member
I know where 90% of my livestock came from. captive prop sps many kinds,captive prop pom pom ,captive prop frogspawn, ect ect..Fragging many corals myself. The only thing from the wild is 2 lsp and some fish. I run my tank 82 all year. It won't jump to 92. doesn't matter what temp you keep it if it jumps 15 degree it probaly be a shock anyway. Still say not that big of a deal as long as its under 88. Not like the need to keep it under 80.
tonka
Member
Your saying you know what Island of the pacific(or other place) that 90% of your inhabitants came from? I've been to about 10 Islands in the Pacific and I can't tell which species came from where most of the time. I agree with Luke. Research is the key. But make sure it's a valuable resource. Shimek is about the only one I know that believes in this "higher temp" theory.
up north hermit
Member
FYI
"Captive Propagated" means just that. It means the animal has been raised in captivity and not wild caught. IronReef knows EXACTLY where his livestock comes from, all the parameters and even the type of lighting used to raise the animal.
Luke you are so right, always a debate in this hobby.
Geez, I remember when the only debate we had was which side of the tank we should put our corner box filter on......
Hermit
"Captive Propagated" means just that. It means the animal has been raised in captivity and not wild caught. IronReef knows EXACTLY where his livestock comes from, all the parameters and even the type of lighting used to raise the animal.
Luke you are so right, always a debate in this hobby.
Geez, I remember when the only debate we had was which side of the tank we should put our corner box filter on......
Hermit
luke
Member
Ironreef,
You do have an advantage by having captive propagated corals, but were they all propagated from the same tank to begin with? If not, you have the same problem. The SPS could have been grown in 78 degree water with 20000k MH while the Xenia could have been propagated in 84 degree water with daylight pc. In the end even captive only tanks become comprimises of different farmers tanks. But you certainly have the advantage in that they all are adapted to captivitey.
Luke
[ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Luke ]
You do have an advantage by having captive propagated corals, but were they all propagated from the same tank to begin with? If not, you have the same problem. The SPS could have been grown in 78 degree water with 20000k MH while the Xenia could have been propagated in 84 degree water with daylight pc. In the end even captive only tanks become comprimises of different farmers tanks. But you certainly have the advantage in that they all are adapted to captivitey
. Luke
[ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Luke ]
ironreef
Member
fwiw I keep my tank higher than some of my sps came from and have faster growth and better color. But theres other factors also. CAPTIVE prop means didn't come from the ocean. But i have wild also 1 huge purple tip acro with a bandit crab. What I'm saying is keeping you tank stable is more important than worring about salinity =1.023 or 1.026 ect temp 78 or 82 it can vary it's not that big of a deal as its made to be. My temp can go from 78 to 84 in one day in the summer. Corals everywhere. If you search all the boards most will say they keep there reef above 80. Its just easier when you have halides. I'm saying its not a big deal why worry if your tank isn't under 80. Alot of ppl keep nice reef under 80 as well as above 80. The info Ron Shimek gets is from the reefs. Look at the referance he didn't fiqure that out he got it from other scientist.
tonka
Member
Hey, Not to keep dragging this on. I do agree that salinity is as important. My main problem is he suggests temps at 86 degrees.(He now has dropped that to 84)I believe that an average of 82 is fine. I was courious to what creatures live in the average of 85+ degree temps? And if you read the March 2001(AFM) rebuttal to Shimek you would see he does not have proof of his findings. Anyway, I think we both agree on the 82 degree average.
luke
Member
Stability is but far the most important factor. But (there is always a but ) I think that high temp tanks are taking risks that are not necessary.
(I personally keep my tank at 78. I have always kept it at this figure. I don't have any reason for it but it works, just as 86 works for others.)
By going out and raising your tank (I am not accusing anyone of doing this but it is possible) 10 degrees to meet some reefs number is stupid IMO. I think that for all but the most experienced reefers, keeping the tank closer to 76 makes more sense. That way there is just more room for error. With that in mind I think that tanks kept above 82-84 should be treated as experimental. Not that they won't/ don't / aren’t working but that they should be treated as experiments (i.e. taking notes, maintaining a more stable environment etc. ). This may seem overboard but I think that most people will have better success if they realize what they are getting involved in. I think that the O2 exchange issue alone is reason to keep tanks at lower temps.
Another problem that no one has addressed is dealers tanks. They are usually kept in the 70’s. Does this mean that every coral / fish brought home will be acclimated slow enough to avoid detrimental shock???? Sadly to say I doubt it.
Luke (ranting and raving again )
) I think that high temp tanks are taking risks that are not necessary. (I personally keep my tank at 78. I have always kept it at this figure. I don't have any reason for it but it works, just as 86 works for others.)
By going out and raising your tank (I am not accusing anyone of doing this but it is possible) 10 degrees to meet some reefs number is stupid IMO. I think that for all but the most experienced reefers, keeping the tank closer to 76 makes more sense. That way there is just more room for error. With that in mind I think that tanks kept above 82-84 should be treated as experimental. Not that they won't/ don't / aren’t working but that they should be treated as experiments (i.e. taking notes, maintaining a more stable environment etc. ). This may seem overboard but I think that most people will have better success if they realize what they are getting involved in. I think that the O2 exchange issue alone is reason to keep tanks at lower temps.
Another problem that no one has addressed is dealers tanks. They are usually kept in the 70’s. Does this mean that every coral / fish brought home will be acclimated slow enough to avoid detrimental shock???? Sadly to say I doubt it.
Luke (ranting and raving again
)
tonka
Member
Luke,
I think that we think the same way. It seems everything you post I agree with. I also keep my tank at 78. It's easy here, I live on the beach with cool temps most of the time. I just read that Wikiki Aquarium keeps there outdoor tanks at 82.The indoor tanks are at 78. C.Delbeek stated that he would rather have them at 78,but because of the outside temps, it's hard to do. So I do understand when people have no choice to keep them higher. Basically I think Shimek is wrong on this theory. And that's what I've read by other well known aquarists/authors. If anyone knows of someone who agrees with Shimek, please let me know. I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks
I think that we think the same way. It seems everything you post I agree with. I also keep my tank at 78. It's easy here, I live on the beach with cool temps most of the time. I just read that Wikiki Aquarium keeps there outdoor tanks at 82.The indoor tanks are at 78. C.Delbeek stated that he would rather have them at 78,but because of the outside temps, it's hard to do. So I do understand when people have no choice to keep them higher. Basically I think Shimek is wrong on this theory. And that's what I've read by other well known aquarists/authors. If anyone knows of someone who agrees with Shimek, please let me know. I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks
luke
Member
Tonka,
I have to agree. I definitley find that you and I think on the same wave length in this hobby. SW is just one big argument over who is right, but at the end of the day everyone (who's corals made it ) is 100% right. That is what makes it so hard.
Luke
Ranger, I totally agree on captive frags. Speaking of which the green Sarcophyton is still alive (and the cut has healed)
I have to agree
. I definitley find that you and I think on the same wave length in this hobby. SW is just one big argument over who is right, but at the end of the day everyone (who's corals made it ) is 100% right. That is what makes it so hard.Luke
Ranger, I totally agree on captive frags. Speaking of which the green Sarcophyton is still alive (and the cut has healed)
ironreef
Member
funny how the aquarium in hawaii is 82 but the indoor one is kept lower. Fwiw doesn't matter who agrees with Shimek who disagrees when they are a the marine conference most don't debate him. All I know you can search any board you will find most ppl keep there tanks in the lower to mid 80 with alot os success. Salinity isn't a big deal either 1.022 to 1.030 inverts do fine no probs. Might be a big deal to fish. I've keep marine life for along time seen the ups and down the absolutes for the most part a stable tank temps/salinities as long as its not outrages changes ... it's not a big deal. It's just RonS is one of the firts to say this also. As for the temps on the reef RonS didn't provide this this is from a sattlite? I belive so the data is real. I don't care either way it just ppl needed worry so much IMO.
tonka
Member
If you've seen boards that keep tanks in the mid 80's by all means show me who? Read this...******************. It's the great temp debate with Dr.Ron and others. You still haven't answered my question, who, that's a well known aquarist/author,believes in this theory? I can name alot that don't. Sprung,Delbeek,Tullock,Moe,Goldstein,Goemans. And I don't know where you got the info but they always debate this theory in conferences. Also read that article in AFM that I posted,it explains it well.
[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: sammystingray ]
[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: sammystingray ]
tonka
Member
I also found this from a interview with C.Delbeek...Q - In both volumes of your book, you recommend 75-76F as the optimum
temperature. Yet many/most corals are collected in waters around 80F. Any
comments?
The temperature ranges we recommend are not a reflection of the
physiological limitations of the animals and most critics seem to be
assuming ... and = as it is a short-coming of our systems ... an aquarium is
not the reef or the ocean .. it is a f finite volume and area for gas
exchange ... at the Waikiki Aquarium we keep out tanks at 80-84 for
non-Hawaiian corals ... more out of lack of adequate cooling then anything
else ... I think that with the advent of downdraft skimmers and Carlson
surge devices for home aquaria .. that the biggest stumbling block to higher
temperatures ... i.e. oxygen solubility is probably less of a concern ...
now than it was four years ago our recommendation was based on our
experience with closed systems and much above 80 ... the inhabitants did not
fare well ... However, reefs are not so warm all the time ... while diving
in the Lembeh straits area of Indonesia ... we found the water temperature
to be .. 72-75 on the other side of the peninsula it was 78-80 in Palau it
was 82 at 80 ft it was 75 at 250 ft it was 65 just before our arrival last
April they recorded highs of 68 at the surface! so to say corals live in 80
degree water all the time is not correct. they are adaptable.
temperature. Yet many/most corals are collected in waters around 80F. Any
comments?
The temperature ranges we recommend are not a reflection of the
physiological limitations of the animals and most critics seem to be
assuming ... and = as it is a short-coming of our systems ... an aquarium is
not the reef or the ocean .. it is a f finite volume and area for gas
exchange ... at the Waikiki Aquarium we keep out tanks at 80-84 for
non-Hawaiian corals ... more out of lack of adequate cooling then anything
else ... I think that with the advent of downdraft skimmers and Carlson
surge devices for home aquaria .. that the biggest stumbling block to higher
temperatures ... i.e. oxygen solubility is probably less of a concern ...
now than it was four years ago our recommendation was based on our
experience with closed systems and much above 80 ... the inhabitants did not
fare well ... However, reefs are not so warm all the time ... while diving
in the Lembeh straits area of Indonesia ... we found the water temperature
to be .. 72-75 on the other side of the peninsula it was 78-80 in Palau it
was 82 at 80 ft it was 75 at 250 ft it was 65 just before our arrival last
April they recorded highs of 68 at the surface! so to say corals live in 80
degree water all the time is not correct. they are adaptable.
