Refugium Set-Up?

puffy_fish

Member
I am going to build a refugium for a 150 gallon fish tank. My plan is to use a 50 gallon glass tank and build as shown in the picture. Couple of questions:
1. Where is a good place for baffles?
2. Does anyone see any issues with my design?
3. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated?
Thanks!!!
 

ameno

Active Member
baffles placement looks good, the only thing is, I prefer the fuge on one side and the skimmer on the other and the sump in the middle, that way you can regulate the flow for the skimmer and the fuge, you will want less flow in the fuge then the skimmer, also it's better not the skimmer before going thru the fuge.
 

hurt

Active Member
Looks perfect to me.
Originally Posted by ameno
, also it's better not the skimmer before going thru the fuge.
How do you explain this? I disagree that you want less flow through a fuge, more specifically an algae scrubber.
 

ameno

Active Member
for your skimmer you want 1.25 to 1.5 times the pump flow rate to get the max. effect from you skimmer, this helps compensate for blowby to the skimmer, so if your running a 500 gph pump on the skimmer you shouting for around 700 gph flow in that area, for your fuge you want less flow usually around a 8x to 10x the fuge size to give the algae time to absorb the nutriants it needs in the water before going back to the DT. so if the fuge is 15 gal. you would want about a 150 gph for it. also the skimmer will remove some of the things the algae needs to grow.
 

donald

Member
I agree, you want your skimmer after the fuge if you run everything "inline". This keeps more nutrients in the water for your algae. There's no reason why your set up won't work, it just won't be as effective. Also a lot of people put the return pump in the middle. This allows you to have finer adjustments of your water flow. What they do is split the incomming water and put ball valves going to each side. This also gives "pods" a clear path to the tank without having to go past the skimmer. Hope this helps, Donald
 

hurt

Active Member
The main thing about the skimmer chamber that matters is that it recieves raw tank water, completely unfiltered and to make sure it does not keep recycling the same the water it just processed. IMO and expericences algae scrubbers(using chaeto as the macro) do much better under higher turnover rates than the 8X-10X you recommend. In my system I have 600 gph going through my fuge which is a 20g with roughly 15g in it while operating. Thus my turnover is 40X, but not all parts of the fuge chamber actaully see 40X just by the mere design and use of baffles. The places that do see a lot of high laminar flow always grow the fastest and greenest. So I went and put chaeto in between my first two baffles before my actual fuge chamber(very high turnover rate in between the baffles) and it grows twice as fast as the chaeto in my fuge does. I am referring to laminar flow however and not linear flow with a powerhead in a fuge blasting straight at the macro.
As to why you need to send raw water to a fuge, you don't. Fuges and skimmers do not compete with one another at all. They each perform completely different functions. Skimmers take out proteins before they have a chance to break down and enter the ammonia cycle. They do not take nitrates/phosphates out directly at all. Through the use of Kalk, skimmers can help precipitate PO4, but that is another thread. Of course fuges do nothing to take out proteins. Point being they do not compete with one another at all, so why do people feel you need to send raw(dirty) water to a fuge?
The main problem with the split design in IMO is most just dump water straight in with no settling chamber, or baffles to have laminar flow over the whole fuge, not just one area. All this allows is detritus to build up that would have otherwise been skimmed out of the first chamber had the water been sent to a skimmer first.
A few quotes from Anthony Calfo...
""Thus... for Chaeto in a 20 gall 'fuge... a 400gph flow (20X) is not asking a lot. Its not enough flow in many cases (like when significant particulates enter from incoming water). In such cases where aquarists get misled to use the old slow-flow recs (under 10X)... it is no wonder the refugium becomes a cess-pool of nuisance algae.
Slow flow in most any refugium (other than settling chamber styles that are actively serviced) has been one of the single biggest tidbits of "mythinformation" promoted at large in recent years. Its patently bad husbandry IMO.
Anthony"
And on the subject of feeding "raw water" to a fuge instead of skimmed water to a fuge here is some more info from the same author on this subject...
"above all things else... the skimmer needs to get all raw water first. Otherwise, organics that you would prefer to be exported are allowed to linger as sediment, get tied up in refugia otherwise, etc.
Be very direct about aggressive skimming and supply it with first chamber raw water."
 

ameno

Active Member
I'm sure there are many different ways and thinking of what will work best, but from my experience and based on the fuges I have set up and are running the method I have decribed works. cheato needs movement and in one tank I have a powerhead pointing to it to help with that. on my newest tank I have around 10x for the fuge and the small piece of cheato I put in has now within about 6 weeks grown to about half 1/4th the size of this 30 gal. fuge. my other tank that has run like this for going on three years has no issues with nitates or unwanted algae and the cheato grows great, my LFS has his sytem set up the way your talking about and can't get his cheato to grow and always has algae problems. If the other method works for some then great stay with it, but the method I suggested works for me and others I have set up that way.
 

some1fishy

Member
couldnt agree more with the last thread. well said hurt. In my set up, I have the same basic design as the one here. My tank water is fed directly into the skimmer chamber where it fed into the skimmer and then dumped directly back into the chamber directly over the first series of baffles. A portion of that return water gets mixed back into the direct fed water from the tank and gets recycled again while the portion of the water flows into the fuge... My macro algae grows at an alarming rate in the fuge. After flowing through the baffles from the fuge, I have my mag drive return plumbed so as to control the flow directing athe majority back into the display and a "t" redirected to the skimmer chamber to repeat the cycle. My flow is about 20 to 25x turnover and as I have said it grows readily.
Just so you know, I have a 30 gal fuge which usually has 20-22 gal in it at any given time.
Seems to work well for me, so IMO, your design looks good.
 

puffy_fish

Member
Do you all have pictures of your designs? I see both points, but I need to get an idea of what I want to do. Also, where do you get baffles cut to fit???
Thanks!!!
 

ameno

Active Member
Originally Posted by PUFFY_FISH
Do you all have pictures of your designs? I see both points, but I need to get an idea of what I want to do. Also, where do you get baffles cut to fit???
Thanks!!!
there is some pics of mine on my thread called (125 gal project underway) you can get a local glass compnay to cut the glass you need, I would go with 1/4" thick
 

puffy_fish

Member
My dad has a 40 gallon tank he is getting rid of. Does anyone think this will work? I have heard you want the refug size between 20 and 30% of the tank size (mine is 150 gallon). Is this the whole sump or just the refug because once I have the skimmer and return sectioned off the refug will be much smaller. The big problem I am running into is how to get anything bigger into the stand. Do others use two like 30 gallon tanks, if so post picture or describe the plumbing? Any ideas/comments would be greatly appreciated?
Thanks!!!
 

sign guy

Active Member
Originally Posted by Hurt
The main thing about the skimmer chamber that matters is that it recieves raw tank water, completely unfiltered and to make sure it does not keep recycling the same the water it just processed. IMO and expericences algae scrubbers(using chaeto as the macro) do much better under higher turnover rates than the 8X-10X you recommend. In my system I have 600 gph going through my fuge which is a 20g with roughly 15g in it while operating. Thus my turnover is 40X, but not all parts of the fuge chamber actaully see 40X just by the mere design and use of baffles. The places that do see a lot of high laminar flow always grow the fastest and greenest. So I went and put chaeto in between my first two baffles before my actual fuge chamber(very high turnover rate in between the baffles) and it grows twice as fast as the chaeto in my fuge does. I am referring to laminar flow however and not linear flow with a powerhead in a fuge blasting straight at the macro.
As to why you need to send raw water to a fuge, you don't. Fuges and skimmers do not compete with one another at all. They each perform completely different functions. Skimmers take out proteins before they have a chance to break down and enter the ammonia cycle. They do not take nitrates/phosphates out directly at all. Through the use of Kalk, skimmers can help precipitate PO4, but that is another thread. Of course fuges do nothing to take out proteins. Point being they do not compete with one another at all, so why do people feel you need to send raw(dirty) water to a fuge?
The main problem with the split design in IMO is most just dump water straight in with no settling chamber, or baffles to have laminar flow over the whole fuge, not just one area. All this allows is detritus to build up that would have otherwise been skimmed out of the first chamber had the water been sent to a skimmer first.
A few quotes from Anthony Calfo...
""Thus... for Chaeto in a 20 gall 'fuge... a 400gph flow (20X) is not asking a lot. Its not enough flow in many cases (like when significant particulates enter from incoming water). In such cases where aquarists get misled to use the old slow-flow recs (under 10X)... it is no wonder the refugium becomes a cess-pool of nuisance algae.
Slow flow in most any refugium (other than settling chamber styles that are actively serviced) has been one of the single biggest tidbits of "mythinformation" promoted at large in recent years. Its patently bad husbandry IMO.
Anthony"
And on the subject of feeding "raw water" to a fuge instead of skimmed water to a fuge here is some more info from the same author on this subject...
"above all things else... the skimmer needs to get all raw water first. Otherwise, organics that you would prefer to be exported are allowed to linger as sediment, get tied up in refugia otherwise, etc.
Be very direct about aggressive skimming and supply it with first chamber raw water."
great post hurt
 

sign guy

Active Member
to add to what hurt said t56he low flow idea comes from other algeas such as maids hair and curlupa. chato will absobe X amount of phosphates and nitrates no matter the flow. chato will grow fine in a low flow fuge but has a better chanse at growing faster if given the same enviroment its used to in the ocean. a faster flow will also allow the chato to remain loose and water will pass through the algea and not over it
 

sign guy

Active Member
Originally Posted by PUFFY_FISH
I am going to build a refugium for a 150 gallon fish tank. My plan is to use a 50 gallon glass tank and build as shown in the picture. Couple of questions:
1. Where is a good place for baffles?
2. Does anyone see any issues with my design?
3. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated?
Thanks!!!
love the design it looks alot like the one I built on wedsday. I would drop the baffle leading into the the fuge area so the water can travel upwards and allow the chato to tumble
 

puffy_fish

Member
My dad has a 40 gallon tank he is getting rid of. Does anyone think this will work? I have heard you want the refug size between 20 and 30% of the tank size (mine is 150 gallon). Is this the whole sump or just the refug because once I have the skimmer and return sectioned off the refug will be much smaller. The big problem I am running into is how to get anything bigger into the stand. Do others use two like 30 gallon tanks, if so post picture or describe the plumbing? Any ideas/comments would be greatly appreciated?
Thanks!!!
 
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