REQUSTING AN ANSWER PLEASE -hospital tank question for coral beauty with popeye

[fishmom]

I have set up a 10 gallon hospital tank for my coral beauty who was popeye and fin/tail deterioration. The tank has a sponge filter and airhose. I am treating the tank with Spectrogram as advised by my LFS. They advised a 5 medicated gallon water change every day until improvement is shown.
My questions are: should I continue to medicate/water change daily until the fish is (hopefully) cured? The tank was set up with water from my main tank, but can I waterchange with freshly made saltwater?
How long does it take popeye to heal?
Is Spectrogram the best choice for antibiotic? I was told to check salinity, but do I need to do any additional water tests in the hospital tank? I was initally told to treat fish in medicated water for 3 hours maximum every other day for 3 treatments. When I went back to LFS, a more knowledgable (?) staffer told me it must remain in medication in hospital tank until cured. Who is correct?
Also would Maracyn/Maracyn 2 be a better medication choice?
This is my first hospital tank, so any information would be appreciated.
Thank you.
**** I am also new to the site and was wondering why some posts get answered several times, yet other posts (such as this one :>( remain unanswered. Is it at the sole discretion of the moderators who get to pick and choose who will get their advice?
Just wondering.
[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: fishmom ]

 

[mal]

I am not familiar with spectrogram, so I can't give advice there. I have treated in my hospital tank with maricyn and maricyn 2. They are very easy to dose and they are not as much work as the spectrogram seems to be. A lot of h2o changes there. I would leave the fish in the hospital tank until all signs / symtoms are totaly gone and the fish acts normally and looks healthy. I would rather lose one fish than risk infecting all my fish by putting them back in the main tank too soon. My personal choice is maricyn products, I've had good luck with them. I would also continue to test the h2o quality in the hospital tank while you medicate to ensure better healing. Good water quality will at least rule out bad water quality as a cause of the problem. (If that makes sense)
Anyone can ask / answer whatever posts they wish on this BB. Sometimes it just takes a while for someone to answer because of the vast array of experience here. There is excellent advice from all experience levels, you can rest assured whatever ailment or problem you have, someone else has "been there, done that." Hope the fish get better.
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: mal ]

 

[pufferlover]

fishmom; mal is correct in the fact that there are so many posts some days and some of us work and have limited time to (as I call it) puter it may take a little time to get to a question. The other side of the coin is some questions require a little research or certain experience and knowledge levels and you need to wait till the right person sees the post. It is not that we want anyone to feel ignored- we don't ever ignore someone in need.
Now as far as your problem from my perspective which is always keep it simple where possible the sole purpose of a HT is to give you a chance to work on a fishes problems without taking a chance of major problems in your main tank (excellent advice but due to space or experience seldom followed except by old timers). Yes if you put a fish in a HT tank it should stay until healed or beyond help (as said above better one lost then a tank full- wipeout as they call it).
I am not familiar with the med you are using and unless someone else here is I can only say when medicating I try to follow the label of the med to the letter. If it said to do daily water changes as your store said then yes do it and re medicate the new water. Just make sure the new water is as close as possible to the salinity and temp of the water in the tank already. You have taken the first step in recognizing the problem and acting on it only time and a little help from above in the end will write the outcome for your fish. The other rule I follow is never give up fish can take time and look beyond help and then just as suddenly come back.
One other thought as I re read this is are you aware of the search feature here on the board. If not look at top right and you will see search (click it) put in your area of interest (ex. Hospital Tank- Popeye- Coral Beauty, etc) and you will find many posts regarding that area which may help you right away. Let us know how it goes or if it is not working.
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]

 

[fishmom]

Thank you both for your help, I really appreciate your advice. :> )
I did do extensive search on this site for popeye and HTs and eye diseases and found the info helpful, info although not very detailed.
My Hospital tank seems more like a 'hospice' tank, as my poor coral's eye looks like it will explode or fall off at any moment, it is so big. It is hard to believe that anything could shrink his eye back down to 'normal'.My little guy is still hanging in though, and although he is not swimming erect, he does have alot of energy for a sick fish. At least no one can pick on him being quaranteened. The spectrogram (antibiotic) does not seem to be helping. Fish's color is not as vivid, and he is not eating. Also his other eye seems to be protruding a bit. I have administered 4 treatments.
I would like to switch to maricyn, as advised on this site. I inquired at my LFS and they only carry Maricyn for FRESH water, but they said that it could be applied for saltwater if you doubled the doseage. Is this true? I know I can't wait if I order online, time is running out. Also, I have read on this site that you should combine Maricyn and Maricyn 2 for the best results, is this true?
How do I go about changing treatments at this point? Do a total water change and treat or would this be too stressful? I am doing water changes with water from my main tank and replenishing water taken with freshly made salt water.
Also, do I just continue to medicate until the fish has a ressurection or dies, which would exceed the number of recommended treatments? I would hate to prolong his suffering, but would do anything it takes to save him. Please advise, and thanking you again for all your help.

 

[beth]

Do at least a 50% water change making sure that the water that is replaced is the same temp and ph as the hosptial tank water. Then use carbon filtration for at least 6 hrs to get the remainder of the water cleaned up of the other meds. [If you go with a complete water change than this step will be unnecessary.] Do not use Maracyn meds for FW as they just don't work as well in marine fish....I've tried this and that is my experience. Use saltwater Maracyn2 which works best for popeye. The saltwater med also has a vitB complex which the FW version lacks, and I have found this to be very beneficial. Follow the directions on the medication pkg, and don't over medicate.
To be honest with you, don't hold out great hopes for this fish. If he is already swiming poorly and the popeye is now extending to the other eye. But you can give this a try. The popeye is swelling and, if the fish survives, the swelling will go down and the eyes could go back to normal size. However, many times the eye stays deformed even after the infection in cured.

 

[beth]

Terry, not to get another fish disease arguement going here, but let me tell you my observation on using the FW variety and tell me what you think. I know it is the same incredient, but I found that the tab just doesn't dissolve very well in saltwater, perhaps a different inert ingredient used? Also, I believe the package label says use in FW or SW only. Also, the b-complex, which isn't in the FW, does seem to boast the immune process in the marine application.

 

[fishmom]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for their continuing advice. My coral has been very active in the hospital tank, but he primarily swims nonstop 'laps' at the water's surface (at the top of the tank). At first I thought that he was looking for food, but he still is not eating. It's almost as though his eye is so large that it acts as a buoy continually lifting him to the water's surface. To me, it seems like an improvement, and if it wasn't for his giant eye and somewhat erratic swimming behavior, I would think that he was well on the way to recovery.
I have found a local source for SW maracyn 2 and tonite I will do a 50 pct. water change, then tomorrow, another 50 percent change.
Would I medicate with Maracyn tomorrow then, after the second water change?
Also, after the recommended number of Maracyn treatments, do I stop medicating and just keep the fish in the HT with non-medicated water? It is a 10 gallon HT (sponge filter/air hose), and I have been doing 3 1/2 gallon water changes every other day. Should I continue to change out that much water during the Maracyn and after treatments are finished? Is that sufficient....or too much? I realize that when it comes to fish casualties, I am way too sensitive, but, I swear, if 'Dave' makes it, I will quit my day job and become a fish evangelist. Seriously, though, you cannot imagine how happy I was to see my coral somewhat animated, and looking better (to me, anyway. Hopefully he was not just gasping for air at the top of the tank). Thanks again for everyone's help.
Please advise on water changes and duration of medication treatment.
Regards, fishmom (and Dave

 

[fishmom]

One last thought: I just reread replies and think that I initially misunderstood water change to switch medications. I do not know how I would introduce carbon to my small HT, so that is not an option. Would I then do a 100 pct water change today, then use new medication, or would this be too stressful? For the H.tank water changes, I use water from main tank, then replenish with freshly made saltwater. Is this too much new saltwater for main tank? Thanks.

 

[fishmom]

One more question...please:
Have purchased Maracyn 2 and doseage instructions on box are for a 20 gallon tank.
I am treating in a 10 gallon, so do I cut the doseage in half? In other words, one pill the 1st day, then 1/2 a pill for remaining 4 days? Also, do I NOT do any water changes during the 5 day treatment (that is how the instructions read), or should I WC because it is a small tank? If so, how much and how often?
Hate to be a pest, but I want to make sure that I get this right for the best possible odds for recovery.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded.

 

[fishmom]

My coral is still hanging on, but things do not look good. He is still not eating, and not as active - pausing vertically occasionally to play dead, only to start swimming again to make me crazy.
He is still in the 10 gallon HT, but I am now treating with Maracyn 2. What do I have to do to maintain good water quality in the small tank? Tank is not cycled with a sponge filter and airhose. Ammonia reading has been 0. Since tank water is a light florescent green, do I take that into consideration when doing the ammonia test? How often should I do water changes, and how much water? What can I do or add to give my sick coral the best shot of survival? Changing out 5 gallons of water every day has me stressed out and my eye twitching.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[fishmom]

Terry,
I DO NOT have any inverts in my tank.
I don't know where you got that idea. Coral is in the HT by itself. My main tank, 150 gallons has a wrasse, a yellow eyed tang, a cinnamon clown, and 4 damsels.
I have been treating with M2 for 4 days.
One tablet the 1st day, then 1/2 tablet the remaining days. (Dosage is for a 20 gallon tank-I have a 10 gallon, so I cut dosage in half. Coral's eyes look better, but fin and tails look shredded. Fish is not eating. There has been improvement, but he is not over the hurdle yet. Should I stop treating after the recommended dosage and just keep fish in HT until it is better or it dies?
Please advise what I should do.
Thank you.

 

[beth]

I think Fish is confused and worried. The package directions is for a tablet for each 20 gal of water. Terry is suggesting that, with your 10 gal, double the dose recommended by the medication label. Therefore you will be using the whole tablet for your 10gal. He is recommending double dose for the duration of treatment using Maracyn2. The thought is that the package label recommendations does not sufficiently dose for effective treatment.

 

[fishmom]

Terry and Beth,
Thank you for the continuing advice. I will double dose with M2 (1 full tablet per day) for the next 3-5 days. Fish is swimming better, eyes look like swelling has decreased, but he still has no interest in eating which concerns me. He also 'sleeps vertically' on his tail which he never did before.
Should I stay with M2 for the next 3-5 days, then switch to nitrofurazone?
Where can I purchase nitrofurazone?
I have been doing 3 1/2 gallon water changes every other day. Ammonia level is 0 and salinity is good.
So far, fish improvement was best with M2.
Is there anything I can do to stimulate the fish's appetite?
How long can the fish live without eating?
Thanks again for the expert advice.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Also, Terry, one last thing that I have just discovered - the first medication I tried in the HT was 'Spectrogram' which did not help fish's condition. Spectrogram is an 'ultra wide spectrum antibiotic blend of nitrofurazone and kanamycin. Don't know if this information would affect your advise on administering nitrofurazone. The M2 seems to be helping in all areas except the fish's fins, tail and appetite.
Thanks for putting up with my questions and helping me. I am just trying to do what is best for the fish.
Regards, Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Terry,
Initial treatment with Spectogram, as per my LFS advice, was to follow dosage on package, which was 1 capsule per 10 gallons. Treated for 4 days. Day #1, fish was swimming better, but on day #2, his second eye was also enlarging and original popeye was still huge. Treated with Spectrogram for about 4 days.
Current M2 treatment has been for 7 or 8 days. Dosage given was as per instructions on box - 1 whole tablet last Tuesday, and 1/2 tablet each day up until last two nights, where I have double dosed (one whole tablet) as per your instructions. (Total days on M2 is 8). Fish's eyes are only mildly enlarged (a MAJOR improvement), but fish looks 'haggard'. Color is not as good, and he is starting to look underfed. Fins/tail are also frayed, but he still swims ok for the most part. I don't know for sure, but it looks as though his mouth may be infected as it doesn't seem to open unless I am just used to seeing it open when he eats. I have added vitamins to the water (not 'Zoe', can't remember the brand). I have tried to feed with flakes and frozen formula one with no luck. He is not interested in eating at all.
I plan to do a 3-4 gallon water change tonite. How many gallons should I replace with fresh water (instead of salt water) to reduce the salinity?
One? Two? Tank is 10 gallon. What should salinity reading be to stimulate appetite?
I sincerely appreciate all your help. Even if fish dies, at least I know that I gave it my best effort, but he has hung on this long, I can only hope that M2 will kick in full force, and he will start eating.
Thanks again for everything.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Terry,
I do not have the Spectogram with me, so I do not have the specifics of the medication. I will get details and write back.
Will also let you know details of vitamins, but I know that they can be added daily.
M2 dosage has been: double dose on the 1st day and last 2 days, so it has been 3 days of double dose, and 5 days regular dose, as per package instructions. So, 'correct' treament (double dose) has only been for the last 2 days. I will do a WC with 2 gal. FW tonite and 1 gal.of saltwater (from main tank)and continue double dose of M2. FW comes from my reverse osmosis unit, so no chlorine to worry about. I will test PH, Ammonia and salinity. What should I bring the salinity down to?
Who makes 'nitrofurazone' and where can I purchase it? I will also try to feed with live food, but I doubt that fish will eat. How much food should I put in the 10 gallon tank? I don't want to cause bad readings by adding food to tank that will not get eaten.
I have never used a buffer, so I am not familiar with that product.
And yes, the fish is very sick, but this hobby becomes very difficult when everyone has a different opinion. I could kick myself for not listening solely to your advice, as opposed to LFS, but, regardless of my mistake, I did always have the fish's best interest in mind.
Thanks again for your continuing advice.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Terry,
I did a 3 1/2 gallon waterchange using 2 gallons of fresh water last nite. Did not realize that I did not have a PH test, but ammonia was .01 (one above zero), so I added one tsp of Amquel detoxifier. Alkalinity was 7.0 (ten drops to turn water rose color) and my nitrate test kit was very old (at least 2 years) but tested anyway, and it read .1 but I don't know if that was accurate due to the age of the test.
Fish is losing color, still will not eat, fins/tail still frayed. I will change out another two gallons tonite and add fresh water. Will purchase PH and nitrate test kits, and continue to medicate with M2.
Unless there is a ressurection, I don't think that my poor fish will make it.
What is used to bring nitrate down to 0, the buffer.....or is that just to boost PH?
Also, what will nitrofurazone cure, the fin/tail deterioration? If the medication works, is it usual a gradual improvement or more like an overnight sensation cure?
Thanks again for trying to help me save my poor fish.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Forgot to mention-
Each 'Spectrogram'capsule contains 150mg of water soluble kanamycin and nitrofurazone activity. Dosage instructions were 1 capsule for every 10 gallons of water every other day for 5 days (3 treatments max). I did 3 treatments (every other day).
Vitamins given were 'Naturereef Natuvite', a natural vitamin complex. Dosage instructions are 2 drops per gallon one or two times per week. I put about 6 or 8 drops in HT.
Thanks again, I am very grateful for all your advice.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Terry,
LFS does not carry Nitrofurazone. They said that it is very expensive, and that they carry Spectrogram, which contains the combo of nitrofurazone plus kanamycin. Should I order it online so I will have it for my next fish Mayday? Is it specifically for fin diseases? I know that if my Coral does not eat, by the time I receive the medication, it will be too late.
Fish's color is still not good and although the popeye is gone, the one affected eye is white, possibly blind in that eye?
I changed out another 2 gallons of SW with fresh water last nite. Salinity is .16
PH was 7.9 so I added 1/2 tsp of Seachem Marine Buffer to raise the PH. Ammonia was 0. Fins are still frayed. Fish seemed to 'perk up' after freshwater and buffer addition, but he looks 'sick' with faded color and looks a bit don't want to say 'skeletal' but definitely thinner.
Should I contine to change out 2 gallons of water with freshwater and bring salinity down to .09? I have been treating double dose of M2 for 4 days now. Should I continue with M2 or switch back to Spectrogram since I cannot find pure nitrorurazone? Should I double dose Spectrogram? Should I treat every day, or every other day?
I am going to put some live food in the tank tonite, but I doubt fish will eat.
I can't believe that fish is still alive, but it looks like his days are numbered if he does not eat. Please advise exactly what I should do. Your advice has been the only thing that has shown any improvement in my poor sick Coral. Again, I am very grateful.
Thank you.
Fishmom

 

[fishmom]

Hi Terry,
My coral is still hanging in there, but things are not looking good. Fins are still bad. I have been treating with double dose of M2 every day, but want to switch to furacyn if I can find it locally, or back to Spectrogram since it is a combo antibiotic.
Salinity of HT is .13
Do you think that this is my best option?
Do I switch out all the water and medicate with new medication mixing in Fresh water to keep new water at .13 salinity, or will this shock the fish?
How would I go about switching medication at this point. Also, I tried feeding with live food, but coral was still not interested in eating.
Please advise.
Thank you,
Fishmom