Responsable Fish Keeping

[cfritz8770]

I'm a "newbie" -- I've been lurking in the background since I had some problems trying to be a responsible pet owner. I've had freshwater all my life (I'm 42) and wanted a saltwater - I knew it was hard but read that fo was a good start -- this site has been helpful - however when you get people bashing other people's advice, it turns you off. My 29 is now dismantled in favor of a 55, and I'm taking it slowly -- my inhabitants have coexisted nicely for 5 months & hopefully issues have resolved. I don't think you need to go "whole hog" into a hobby right away to enjoy it. You can take it step by step and be more successful. I have a slowly evolving saltwater aquarium that sort of looks like a freshwater but I'm enjoying the tank, the fish are healthy and isn't that what this hobby is about?

 

[gobiodon]

I've joined this board a good few years ago and raised the hell about using-killing (living fish!) Damsels for the cycling process.
Boy, what I got for that! So I left.
Meanwhile, I up-graded my tank from 125 to 200 (my house will not take any bigger), learn a lot - the same fish from 3~4 years became my great friends, can play with them, especially Vlamingi Tang and Cowfish, they eat from my hand.
What is the meaning of putting beautiful animal in small box
and watch it die? Isn't it better to keep small, equaly beautiful fish and see it happy and LIVING!?
If I cannot keep anything bigger than 55~75 I would buy Gobies, Dottyback, Cardinals... Tangs get bigger and bigger, believe me - come and see mine. And what next? Give them back to the store?
This is a great hobby for everybody but remember - you are dealing with the living creatures taken from the ocean. They already went through hell of transportation and over-crowded
tanks in LFS. Don't make their lives more miserable.
Nobody should be offended by different opinions; are we not here to learn and help?

 

[stacyt]

From the responses it seems that most feel the same way that I do. I'm in no way saying that you have to have a big tank to enjoy this hobby, and the many fish that you can choose for smaller tanks, just that people should consider what the limitations of their tank is, and stock accordingly.
Probably what irritates me the most are the ones that post over and over about it being O.K. to put a fish that can grow to 7-8" into a 55 gallon tank. While it may live, it definatly wont be happy, and it will suffer long term.

 

[lutz493]

Stacey T,
If you would please, elaborate on the changes in behavior you noticed from moving your Tang from the smaller tank to your now 240 gallons.
Like many others I have a Tang in tank less then 100 gallons.
I've had the Tang for a little over a year and have over the course of that year for various reasons been forced to restack my liverock. Each time I've restacked my liverock, I've given my aquascaping more holes, crevices, caves then before. The Tang responds more and more positively to the new aquascaping and additions of LR (giving less 'open' swimming room in the tank). He never has a set swim pattern in the tank and moves about the tank in a very 'casual' way.
This starts to bring me to a conclusion that yes, Tangs are active swimmers, but perhaps a better word is active explorers.
It seems to me that a Tang would be happier in a 48" long tank stacked 18" high then a 72" long tank with 8" of rockwork.
It would seem to me not giving enough rockwork would prove boring to the fish causing some sort of stress.
We make statements that Tangs should not be kept in anything smaller then 100 gallon, some higher. Seems to me, if you cannot provide adequate amount of rock stacked properly to provide enough places to explore you shouldn't house a Tang regardless of how big the tank is.
Please, elaborate, correct me on what opinion I have formed.
I see, pictures of peoples tanks who have 100+ gallons and very low stacked liverock and it makes me wonder how their Tangs can be happy just swimming above and around in circles all day.
I am using the example here of a Yellow Tang (a little bigger then the size of a baseball) - I would use this same opinion when talking about a Purple, Kole, Scopas and Chevron Tang.

 

[stacyt]

The best way that I can describe it, it seems he's more relaxed. He swims at a slower pace. When I 1st added him to my 80 it took a couple of weeks before he was comfortable, and moving around the tank, and eating well. After moving him to my 240, within a couple of days he was swimming, checking out the entire tank. I know that part of this was ther was no stress from being caught and shipped for a long period. He would flare his fins a lot when he was in the 80, havn't seen him do that yet in the 240. He spends a considerable more amount of time grazing on the LR. When he's not grazing he slowly cruises around the entire tank, almost like he's playing. He does spend a lot of time out in the open swimming around, before he used to stick close to the LR. When he was cruising the tank in the 80, it looked more like he had a burst of energy that he needed to release.

 

[bona42na]

Stacy I agree with you on almost all points except Im not really sure that flaring the fins is a spooked or lets call it un-relaxed response. My Purple seems very content with my Picasso in the 110 , using all of its real estate crazing and poking around and hes flaring and un-flaring for no apparent reason while doing so. (At least none that I can see) . As far as fishkeeping habits go I just try to advise people on what I think is best for their fish but trying to impose judgement on them is kind of futile. They are gonna do what they want to anyway if they are pre-disposed to. Regards Peter

 

[marlins #1]

I clearly Understand everyones reasonable points.
But I'd rather hear someone scream at me and tell me that Im doing something wrong, then have someone wisper me a lie or bad advice.
These are live animals, the only thing I can honeslty say that I don't understand, is why care so much about the TANGS.
Not one fish is more important than another, But I guess that its the most popular fish and the most unconvinient situations.
If you don't wish to learn or understand, either you jump into your fishtank, or throw your fish back into the ocean.
Thanks for all your advice, again I've had many FISH die on me, and it was my fault, I didn't know how to care for them.
Keep on TEACHING/ and I will keep on PREACHING.
GOD BLESS

 

[stacyt]

jw,
Thanks. I respect your opinions, and your advice, as well as several other members on this BB. So far the responses have been positive, and it's good to see that there are several others that are doing what is right, when it comes to being a responsable hobbyist. Hopefully there'll be a few more that read this post, and will understand what we are trying to get across.

 

[marineman]

staceyT Thanks for your insights/experiences!!!
What type of tang after 2 years killed/dominated its tankmates???? What other tangs did it kill??
I love tangs and dwarf angels, so i bought a large tank 175g bowfront so i could mix them. So far (1.3yrs) i have had a yellow, purple, naso and clown getting along just fine. And have a bicolor, flame, and lemonpeel in the same tank without any problems as well. If i can successfully add a PB tang i would stop adding any further fish. They are well feed, have plenty of swimming space(6ft long) and have a nice amount of LR to graze on and dart thru many caves/holes. No major fighting seen to this date! Some chasing occurs over a 3-6 day period when i added them in the past but then stops. I hope for long term success and could afford an even larger tank if things start to get aggressive in the 175g. Have not loss fish in the past from fighting but have had ich losses early on. Not a problem for a long time now. Well, please give me your thoughts and suggestions! Thanks, Mman

 

[stacyt]

The tang that I still have is a whitecheek tang. He ended up killing my yellow tang first, that was just a bit smaller than he was. Then he killed my hippo tang, that was just a little bigger than he was.
I know other people that have kept multiple tangs together in similar sized tanks as yours. Most seem to work fine for a while, but in most cases it ends up with 1 becoming a dominant fish, and killing of the others. I know of 1 person around my area that had kept his tangs for almost 4 years before the aggression started. By the time he had seperated the tangs he had lost 1 of the 3 that where in the tank.
There are always exceptions, and I'm sure in this case there are some. However I have not known of anyone keeping multiple tangs together for more than a few years without problems. I've heard of some people with extremely large tanks having success, but most of them had much larger tanks than my own.
Also I'd like every to note that although I refer to tangs the most, it doesn't end there. There are several others that purchase fish such as volitan lions, some of the puffers, and some of the angels as well that should be kept in larger systems. In most cases however it turns out to be tangs.

 

[gmbnj]

Stacy,
I have a 155 BOW with niger, clown tirgger, huma, undulatas, Queen angel, flame angel, lemonpeel angel, french angel, tusk, cleaner wrasse and snow flake eel.
Before The 155 gallon I had a 75 gallon. All of these fish EXCEPT the Queen, tusk, undulatus and cleaner wrasse were all together. I have had them for over 5 years and yes, there is occasional chasing but my angels all live peacefully together.
Now that I have the 155, I added a large Queen angel and I have found as long as the fish are not similar in size, they can live together.
I do agree that most people rush into this hobby without any knowledge. I have been doing this for over 15 years and I have always kept fish together that everyone said would never work.
Keep your fish well fed, give them plenty of hiding space and always test your water and do ROUTINE water changes.
Any disagree?

 

[stacyt]

gmbnj,
So your telling me that the setup that you have is O.K. How big are the fish that you currently have, and how long have you had them all? Do you remeber how big they where when you added them? Would you recommend to the other hobbyist on this board that it would be O.K. for them to recreate your setup, as long as they picked different sized fish? Don't think that I'm harpen on you, it's always tough to tell someone's tones in words, but to say that this is a good setup IMO is bad advice. I say in the long run, if you intend to keep them housed in these conditions, you'll run into problems. Who's to say that they may survive, but I doubt that they will ever thrive, under those conditions. How many others may try to recreate that type of a setup, only to kill several fish in the attempt. If you look at the adult sizes that the gray angel, and the queen can obtain alone they would need a bigger tank than what you are providing. With age the clown trigger will become even more aggressive, and likely decide that he's tired of sharing his space with the other fish. There is a lot more involved with keeping several fish together than picking fish that are different sizes. Especially if you look at the fact that in the long run, several of the fish that you listed will obtain close to the same size as adults.

 

[jlem]

Originally posted by Lutz493
I see, pictures of peoples tanks who have 100+ gallons and very low stacked liverock and it makes me wonder how their Tangs can be happy just swimming above and around in circles all day.

Tangs in nature usually spend the majority of time swimming around the rocks usually and not really throughout the rocks and therefore a tank with more swimming room and less rock is more sutable.

 

[kinkfish]

I know this guy that is horriable to his fish he has titan trigger leaves the lights on all the time. chases the fish with a net it is super aggresive I do not think that that is responsable fish keeping.

 

[gmbnj]

Stacy,
I am not saying that I recommend everyone to do as I did. I have experience in this hobby and I am VERY strict about maintenance.
The only large fish in the tank are the Queen and my Niger. Like I said, I have had most of these fish for over 5 years and they are happy and in perfect health. If you read books aon SWF, they all say its impossible to keep what I have in the same tank, but I am proving them wrong.
Why do you think this is not possible? In my experience if Angels are not close in size, they will get along. Yuo are correctthat when my French matures and the Queen grows, I will need a bigger tank. At the moment they are all happy.
By the way I also am using what most people would consider an archaic setup.
2 Eheim 2229 wet/dry filters, 2 fluval 404's, 1 ehiem 2227 professional, lifeguard fluidized bed filter, 18W UV and a modified Remora skimmer.
My nitrites are 0, ammonia 0 and nitrates are 20-40 with weekly water changes.
I am not trying to argue with you Stacy, but just wanted to share some success of my own.

 

[stacyt]

gmbnj ,
I think we're both misunderstanding each other on this. I'm not saying that you cannot keep the fish that you list together for a period of time. For an inexperienced person I would definatly recommend against it. Also these fish need room, and as they mature will need to be seperated, as they tend to become aggressive with age. I think you agree with me on that point.
I have read several books stating that you cannot keep more than 1 large angel together. Again as juvenilles, and young adults, I have seen them housed together without problems. On the flip side I have also seen people run into problems with keeping young adults, and juveniles. When they start to age, that is when it seems that their personality's begin to change, and I would say that the majority of the adults cannot be housed together, except in large systems.
Bottom line I think is that like people, fish have their own personality's. I've seen fish that are supposed to be aggressive, that turned out to be total wimps. I've also seen fish that are supposed to be peacefull, turn out to be aggressive.

 

[gmbnj]

Stacy,
I agree 100% with you. I know that soon my baby undualtus will have to leave as he is a nasty little guy. I hope my french and Queen will stay peacfull but yes, there is no gurantee.
I must spend at least 2 hours a day in front of my tank, constantly watching the fish's behavior.
I thought I would be happy with the 155 but I am now ready for 300++, just my bank account is not ready.
It is nice to talk to our hobbiest who's passions for these amazing creatures are alike.
Thanks for all of your input.
I will take pics tonight and email them to you guys.

 

[sting_ray29]

YOu can put whatever you want in your tank as long as it survives and lives healthy.. I talked to the owner of this one pet store and asked about overpopulated tanks, and she said they have tons of fish in each tank and they live fine together... If someone asks about putting 2 tangs in a 55 gallon tank just don't recomend it.... Its not a big deal to have a "crowded tank in your opinion" if they get along fine!

 

[marlins #1]

Want more space, throw your fish back in the OCEAN, where they can have unlimited swimming space, and swim freely, WHERE THEY BELONG
Just playing, hope that I didn't offend everyone on this website.
No but serious, things are just being repeated, STACY you don't have to say no more, you said it all, and correctly, so just tell people to re-read your first posts.
But then again you did start this thread and I have no business in here.
But you did your part, don't stress the matter anymore, fish would always get to big for tanks, so the only thing better is the ocean, like the whales here in Florida, those are 100,000 gallons and way more, but it would be compared exactly to a 20 gallon tank and the smallest fish that this website sells in it.
So I close that since its bad enough that they are in presion innocently, but that keepers are irresponsible and don't take good care of it..
So remember, your fish ARE YOUR PETS, and just like you have to care and are responsible for your dogs or cats, you have to maintain your fish, they are animals too, just that the laws are different.
America cars not of the little people
But GOD bless because all is equal

 

[oceanminded]

Stacy you asked about two tangs in one tank...I have two yellows in my 190 with no problems. Did have three at one time but let a friend have it.