Return lines? Flex or PVC
- Thread starter jond
- Start date
sal t. nutz
Member
Is it a glass refugium, or other material? If it is not glass, just drill it and install a bulkhead. If it is glass, you can still do this, just takes more effort.
broomer5
Active Member
I think PVC looks more professional - cleaner "looking", but you need to install some PVC unions to service it and the pump, or make changes.
The vinyl tubing - if you get the reinforced type with the fibers inbedded in the walls - is good and strong, won't pinch on you at any bends, and makes maintenance or changes much easier.
Barbed fittings and a few plastic hose clamps and you're good to go.
I've only used flex on the overflow drains.
jond,
If you're worried about the vinyl tubing slipping out of the refugium, you could run the tubing through a little larger piece of PVC pipe or fitting, and attach the fitting to the edge of the fuge.
Or drill - as Sal T suggested.
The vinyl tubing - if you get the reinforced type with the fibers inbedded in the walls - is good and strong, won't pinch on you at any bends, and makes maintenance or changes much easier.
Barbed fittings and a few plastic hose clamps and you're good to go.
I've only used flex on the overflow drains.
jond,
If you're worried about the vinyl tubing slipping out of the refugium, you could run the tubing through a little larger piece of PVC pipe or fitting, and attach the fitting to the edge of the fuge.
Or drill - as Sal T suggested.
jond
Member
All good answers. I am certainly going to do flex on my drain lines. Still unsure on the return. The sump is a 30 gal. long glass tank and I don't think I want to drill it. I am leaning toward PVC as I think it will be easier to install the tee and ball valves for flow control.
My pump and the return bulk head are 3/4" NPT. Do you think using all 3/4 pipe is alright, or should I bump up to 1" between fittings?
Thanks for all the help, I will try to post some pics along the way.
Broomer, I notice you have black plastic between your refugium and your other sump. Did you have problems with algae in your sump side from the light?
My pump and the return bulk head are 3/4" NPT. Do you think using all 3/4 pipe is alright, or should I bump up to 1" between fittings?
Thanks for all the help, I will try to post some pics along the way.
Broomer, I notice you have black plastic between your refugium and your other sump. Did you have problems with algae in your sump side from the light?
broomer5
Active Member
jond,
I did tack up some black plastic sheeting, with hopes to keep algae from growing in the sump/trickle plate.
Got 72 watts of pc over the refugium.
Placed the black plastic between the two sides from the beginning - so I never actually had the problem.
Seems to work okay - no algae
I did tack up some black plastic sheeting, with hopes to keep algae from growing in the sump/trickle plate.
Got 72 watts of pc over the refugium.
Placed the black plastic between the two sides from the beginning - so I never actually had the problem.
Seems to work okay - no algae
jond
Member
Broomer,
Do you think it would be necessary to use 1" between the pump and bulk head, or would 3/4 be fine? The reason I ask, is the pump recommends 1 1/2" ID for maxium flow, but the fittings and the return in the overflow box are all 3/4.
I am using to Mag 9.5's. I think I should be fine, what do you think?
Do you think it would be necessary to use 1" between the pump and bulk head, or would 3/4 be fine? The reason I ask, is the pump recommends 1 1/2" ID for maxium flow, but the fittings and the return in the overflow box are all 3/4.
I am using to Mag 9.5's. I think I should be fine, what do you think?
broomer5
Active Member
Hi jond
I'm a little confused here.
Can you please describe your system's details some more ?
Internal overflows or external overflow box ?
How many and what size ?
Looks like you're saying 3/4" fittings everywhere, on the return bulkheads and the one or two overflow(s) ?
Are you planning to run TWO Mag-Drive 9.5's ???
I can go the short and sweet route - or the details.
Think I'll choose the detailed approach.
I'm looking at my Mag9.5 instruction sheet right now.
The pump has a 3/4" Male NPT outlet, and 3/4" Female NPT Inlet.
The flow vs height in inches ( head pressure ) shows the flow of water the pump can produce at different head pressures.
Using 1" hose, at 4 feet of head = about 800 gph.
Using 1" hose at 2 feet of head = 900 gph.
Pretty safe to assume at 3 feet you'd get 850 gph.
This chart recommends using 1 INCH OR LARGER DIAMETER HOSE for maximum flow.
It does not say whether that's 1 inch inside or outside diamter.
I assume it's O.D.
PVC pipe is manufactured to standards.
If you have a 3/4" PVC Schedule 40 pipe, the outside diameter is actually 1.050 ( 1-3/64 ) inches, as is the male thread.
It's internal diamter is .804 inches ( greater than 3/4" )
Tubing unfortunately is not near as standardized, and vary's greatly with the pressure rating ( wall thickness ) of the tubing.
Here's the deal - you do not want to restrict the internal diameter of the return line going from the pump's outlet .... up to the tank for several reasons.
1) The flowcharts will not be as accurate, and can make selections harder.
2) You'll create "backpressure" on the pump.
3) You'll lose pressure and pump efficiency
4) You'll increase water velocity ( not always a bad thing )
5) It's possible for the pump to overheat if too much backpressure is induced.
Easiest way to prevent problems and get the most out of the pump is to measure all the internal diameters of all the fittings, pipe or tubing you plan to use. If everything's 3/4" ID or larger, then you'll be fine.
If it's smaller than 3/4" ID, you may have problems. Or not.
I used 1" Schedule 40 PVC pipe fittings with 1" vinyl tubing on my Mag9.5 returnline, and an 1-1/2" PVC Union and ball valves.
Tried to reduce restrictions and points where the flow would be reduced. This includes too many turns and fittings. But you always will have some of these restrictions - unless you just drape the hose over the edge of the tank - not too pretty, practical or safe.
By no means am I saying this is the right way - just happens to be what I chose to use.
If I'm reading your post right - I'm concerned that if you have 3/4" overflow(s) and plan to run TWO Mag9.5's ............. that you may end up pushing more water up than can drain down safely.
But as I said - still a little confused on what you are planning to do.
I'm a little confused here.
Can you please describe your system's details some more ?
Internal overflows or external overflow box ?
How many and what size ?
Looks like you're saying 3/4" fittings everywhere, on the return bulkheads and the one or two overflow(s) ?
Are you planning to run TWO Mag-Drive 9.5's ???
I can go the short and sweet route - or the details.
Think I'll choose the detailed approach.
I'm looking at my Mag9.5 instruction sheet right now.
The pump has a 3/4" Male NPT outlet, and 3/4" Female NPT Inlet.
The flow vs height in inches ( head pressure ) shows the flow of water the pump can produce at different head pressures.
Using 1" hose, at 4 feet of head = about 800 gph.
Using 1" hose at 2 feet of head = 900 gph.
Pretty safe to assume at 3 feet you'd get 850 gph.
This chart recommends using 1 INCH OR LARGER DIAMETER HOSE for maximum flow.
It does not say whether that's 1 inch inside or outside diamter.
I assume it's O.D.
PVC pipe is manufactured to standards.
If you have a 3/4" PVC Schedule 40 pipe, the outside diameter is actually 1.050 ( 1-3/64 ) inches, as is the male thread.
It's internal diamter is .804 inches ( greater than 3/4" )
Tubing unfortunately is not near as standardized, and vary's greatly with the pressure rating ( wall thickness ) of the tubing.
Here's the deal - you do not want to restrict the internal diameter of the return line going from the pump's outlet .... up to the tank for several reasons.
1) The flowcharts will not be as accurate, and can make selections harder.
2) You'll create "backpressure" on the pump.
3) You'll lose pressure and pump efficiency
4) You'll increase water velocity ( not always a bad thing )
5) It's possible for the pump to overheat if too much backpressure is induced.
Easiest way to prevent problems and get the most out of the pump is to measure all the internal diameters of all the fittings, pipe or tubing you plan to use. If everything's 3/4" ID or larger, then you'll be fine.
If it's smaller than 3/4" ID, you may have problems. Or not.
I used 1" Schedule 40 PVC pipe fittings with 1" vinyl tubing on my Mag9.5 returnline, and an 1-1/2" PVC Union and ball valves.
Tried to reduce restrictions and points where the flow would be reduced. This includes too many turns and fittings. But you always will have some of these restrictions - unless you just drape the hose over the edge of the tank - not too pretty, practical or safe.
By no means am I saying this is the right way - just happens to be what I chose to use.
If I'm reading your post right - I'm concerned that if you have 3/4" overflow(s) and plan to run TWO Mag9.5's ............. that you may end up pushing more water up than can drain down safely.
But as I said - still a little confused on what you are planning to do.
jond
Member
The overflow's are two 1", and the return are two 3/4". I am planning on using 3/4" schedule 20 pipe and 3/4" fittings and valves. And as you said, as few bends and fittings as possible.
I too am looking at the flow chart that came with the pumps (of ya, I am going to run two) and it states "1 1/2" inside diameter is the minimum hose size that should be used for maximum flow".
That is what sparked the question of pipe size, but it leaves the pump out of 3/4" NPT and enters the overflow box thru 3/4" NPT and 3/4" pipe from there to the spray bar (going to use modular pipe with 3-4 nozzels on each side), so would a few feet of larger pipe really help that much?
I hope this clears it up better, and thanks for the input.
I too am looking at the flow chart that came with the pumps (of ya, I am going to run two) and it states "1 1/2" inside diameter is the minimum hose size that should be used for maximum flow".
That is what sparked the question of pipe size, but it leaves the pump out of 3/4" NPT and enters the overflow box thru 3/4" NPT and 3/4" pipe from there to the spray bar (going to use modular pipe with 3-4 nozzels on each side), so would a few feet of larger pipe really help that much?
I hope this clears it up better, and thanks for the input.
broomer5
Active Member
Guess we have different versions of the Mag9.5 pump paperwork.
Mine says 1"
Oh well - whatever.
But to answer your Q
If all you do is pipe up to larger diameter, then pipe down to 3/4 again - it will not add much if any difference to the flowrate.
Will just slow it down running up larger pipe, but once the flow moves through the 3/4" again - all bets are off.
The velocity will increase - you'll have the pressure drop and it will flow what it will flow at that point.
You could use 3" pipe - then throttle down to 3/4 - same thing.
I would encourage you to use at least 1" ball valves though.
If you measure the ID of the hole in a 3/4" ball - you'll see most are going to be 1/2" holes. This will affect the flow more than you think - by creating a pressure drop across the restriction.
Go with 1" valve, and get (2) 3/4 x 1" threaded adaptors. Teflon tape and you'll be better off with these bigger valves - I promise you.
The dual 1" overflows will drain approximately 1400 - 1500 gph.
Approximately. It's possible to get more than this, but it depends on how everything is plumbed up.
The TWO pumps can put out anywhere from 750 to 900 gph each. Total of 1500 to 1800 gph is possible in most of our applications.
I think you're going to be right there on the hairy edge of either having a maxed out flowrate - or end up overflowing the tankwater over the edges.
Of course - this is only guessing at this point.
Sometimes you just have to try it and see what happens in "real-world" and not on paper.
Mine says 1"
Oh well - whatever.
But to answer your Q
If all you do is pipe up to larger diameter, then pipe down to 3/4 again - it will not add much if any difference to the flowrate.
Will just slow it down running up larger pipe, but once the flow moves through the 3/4" again - all bets are off.
The velocity will increase - you'll have the pressure drop and it will flow what it will flow at that point.
You could use 3" pipe - then throttle down to 3/4 - same thing.
I would encourage you to use at least 1" ball valves though.
If you measure the ID of the hole in a 3/4" ball - you'll see most are going to be 1/2" holes. This will affect the flow more than you think - by creating a pressure drop across the restriction.
Go with 1" valve, and get (2) 3/4 x 1" threaded adaptors. Teflon tape and you'll be better off with these bigger valves - I promise you.
The dual 1" overflows will drain approximately 1400 - 1500 gph.
Approximately. It's possible to get more than this, but it depends on how everything is plumbed up.
The TWO pumps can put out anywhere from 750 to 900 gph each. Total of 1500 to 1800 gph is possible in most of our applications.
I think you're going to be right there on the hairy edge of either having a maxed out flowrate - or end up overflowing the tankwater over the edges.
Of course - this is only guessing at this point.
Sometimes you just have to try it and see what happens in "real-world" and not on paper.
jond
Member
Broomer,
One of the Mag 9's is going to have a tee to feed the refugium side of the sump, and this is where I was going to put the valve.
Do you thing I should put valves on the two return lines to control flow?
I also was going to install backflow preventers on the two return lines, what do you thing of that?
One of the Mag 9's is going to have a tee to feed the refugium side of the sump, and this is where I was going to put the valve.
Do you thing I should put valves on the two return lines to control flow?
I also was going to install backflow preventers on the two return lines, what do you thing of that?
broomer5
Active Member
As long as the valves are 1/2" size larger than the pipe - I put valves on both my pumps.
It's cheap - and gives you some control.
Check valves are okay.
I don't use them - but a lot of folks do.
They will fail - like all mechanical devices - someday.
When that is - no telling.
I would not rely ONLY on check valves to prevent the display tank from draindown on power loss. No way.
Get yer drill out buddy
No wadda mean ...
It's cheap - and gives you some control.
Check valves are okay.
I don't use them - but a lot of folks do.
They will fail - like all mechanical devices - someday.
When that is - no telling.
I would not rely ONLY on check valves to prevent the display tank from draindown on power loss. No way.
Get yer drill out buddy
No wadda mean ...
X
xxchris060
Guest
I use the flex tubing and it is easy to set up and move around if you want to at anytime. I only had one problem after i had it for about 5 yrs the coupler end cracked.
jond
Member
Well, everything is running and no flow problems. Lots of circulation, and the overflows are handling the rate just fine. The only problem is very noisy overflows and sucking lots of air. I am going to dry the "Durso" standpipe conversion today and hopefully that will fix the problem without reducing flow too much.
Anyone else had success with this modification?
Anyone else had success with this modification?