Sad NEWS for all of us...Read the story
- Thread starter jhebi
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ophiura
Active Member
Uh, these articles drive me nuts from a scientific perspective.
Some of the devastated coral can never be replaced because it only grows the width of one dime a year, Miller said.
So, how did they get there?
They grew over hundreds or thousands of years. We are SO focused on human life spans. Will it regrow in a human lifespan? Probably not. Will it regrow eventually. Yeah, I think so. Will it be in the same place? Maybe not. If the oceans are getting warmer, maybe we will get reefs in different areas of the ocean where we don't have them now.
Wow, 20 years of satelite monitoring of sea surface temperature.
That is almost laughable to consider as a major source of data.
Ya know, I bet those continents moving around killed some coral, as did meteor impacts and climate changes of geologic history that had NOTHING to do with humans.
Keep in mind that scientists need money. They have to live too, and saying "Hey this is normal!" will not get you the dollars. That is not worth researching. It is not exciting. It does not make the news. Doom and destruction makes the news. I can tell you because I have been there.
We know that over geologic history these reefs are not always dominated by large massive corals. That at periods, a hypothesis called "alternate stable states," different corals and algae...yes algae...dominate reefs. This can be correlated to coral die offs or the loss of certain keystone species (eg the grazer urchin Diadema about 20 years ago).
Everything is very gloom and doom but I assure you that corals will continue on. It is adaptation or die. Maybe not as we are used to NOW, but do not confuse changes on a HUMAN lifespan with being a major variation from what occurs over GEOLOGIC time. That HUMANS think that what they see now is what is "right" and how it has always been.
Now I believe global warming exists, but I believe it has been a long long long term pattern since this planet came to be. These sort of stories just irk me.
And a guarantee you if sea surface temperatures DROPPED considerably, the article would be very very similar. In fact I think I recall reading something like that somewhere recently...must look that up.
Now don't go out and dump a barrel of oil down the storm drain, but always consider that there are parts of these stories that people don't talk about, IMO
Humans may very well be killing things off...but IMO they do not have the ability to destroy this planet. We may kill ourselves off in some way, and take stuff with us, but in the end is it much worse than some of the other things that have influenced life on the planet?
And above all, if this concerns you, I hope you are buying captive raised animals, corals and aquacultured LR....this hobby IS part of the problem in many ways.
Some of the devastated coral can never be replaced because it only grows the width of one dime a year, Miller said.
So, how did they get there?
They grew over hundreds or thousands of years. We are SO focused on human life spans. Will it regrow in a human lifespan? Probably not. Will it regrow eventually. Yeah, I think so. Will it be in the same place? Maybe not. If the oceans are getting warmer, maybe we will get reefs in different areas of the ocean where we don't have them now.
Wow, 20 years of satelite monitoring of sea surface temperature.
Ya know, I bet those continents moving around killed some coral, as did meteor impacts and climate changes of geologic history that had NOTHING to do with humans.
Keep in mind that scientists need money. They have to live too, and saying "Hey this is normal!" will not get you the dollars. That is not worth researching. It is not exciting. It does not make the news. Doom and destruction makes the news. I can tell you because I have been there.
We know that over geologic history these reefs are not always dominated by large massive corals. That at periods, a hypothesis called "alternate stable states," different corals and algae...yes algae...dominate reefs. This can be correlated to coral die offs or the loss of certain keystone species (eg the grazer urchin Diadema about 20 years ago).
Everything is very gloom and doom but I assure you that corals will continue on. It is adaptation or die. Maybe not as we are used to NOW, but do not confuse changes on a HUMAN lifespan with being a major variation from what occurs over GEOLOGIC time. That HUMANS think that what they see now is what is "right" and how it has always been.
Now I believe global warming exists, but I believe it has been a long long long term pattern since this planet came to be. These sort of stories just irk me.
And a guarantee you if sea surface temperatures DROPPED considerably, the article would be very very similar. In fact I think I recall reading something like that somewhere recently...must look that up.
Now don't go out and dump a barrel of oil down the storm drain, but always consider that there are parts of these stories that people don't talk about, IMO
And above all, if this concerns you, I hope you are buying captive raised animals, corals and aquacultured LR....this hobby IS part of the problem in many ways.
hottie79
Member
You cannot seriously believe from a SCIENTIFIC perspective that HUMANS have NOTHING to do with this....
With the chemicals that we pump into the earth, everyday, you simply cannot take the stand that it isnt partly our own faults. I don't think anyone said that we are the only culprits here, but simply that we need to take better care of our world. We don't have another one. And even if you choose believe that we have nothing do to with it, wouldnt it be better to play it on the safe side, and find ways to do things that AREN'T pumping so many pollutants into our atmosphere and earth and oceans?
And by the way, yes, obviously this DOES concern me, because I do care about our oceans. I do things like volunteer on ocean clean-up days. Part of the reason I have my aquarium is because I do care about my ocean. I spent the weekend teaching my 5 year old niece about the fish, taking her to Epcot aquarium, showing how each animal had a job to do, and that if there wasnt one to do that job, how it could throw the whole "mini-ecosytem" into termoil. In turn, when we went to the beach she told a teenager to not throw her trash into the sand. Hopefully now, she will grow up with a love for the ocean and want to take care of it as well.
With the chemicals that we pump into the earth, everyday, you simply cannot take the stand that it isnt partly our own faults. I don't think anyone said that we are the only culprits here, but simply that we need to take better care of our world. We don't have another one. And even if you choose believe that we have nothing do to with it, wouldnt it be better to play it on the safe side, and find ways to do things that AREN'T pumping so many pollutants into our atmosphere and earth and oceans?
And by the way, yes, obviously this DOES concern me, because I do care about our oceans. I do things like volunteer on ocean clean-up days. Part of the reason I have my aquarium is because I do care about my ocean. I spent the weekend teaching my 5 year old niece about the fish, taking her to Epcot aquarium, showing how each animal had a job to do, and that if there wasnt one to do that job, how it could throw the whole "mini-ecosytem" into termoil. In turn, when we went to the beach she told a teenager to not throw her trash into the sand. Hopefully now, she will grow up with a love for the ocean and want to take care of it as well.
ophiura
Active Member
I said don't go pouring a barrel of oil down the drain
I think humans IMPACT the environment, yes...but I don't believe gloom and doom stories like this. I DO NOT think that humans can destroy the planet and that we can therefor "save the earth." We need to save ourselves if anything. I think we can be a major impact, but I do put a limit on our abilities.
It would be stupid to pollute and encourage that, because yes it has an immediate impact on things. It makes life miserable to see that all the time. But I am talking about a bigger picture here...a different time scale that these studies never really seem to address.
We can't look at these things and explain them on small scales, and yet many seem to try. They are, IMO, just missing a lot of information.
But hey, it is just my opinion, OK?
I think humans IMPACT the environment, yes...but I don't believe gloom and doom stories like this. I DO NOT think that humans can destroy the planet and that we can therefor "save the earth." We need to save ourselves if anything. I think we can be a major impact, but I do put a limit on our abilities.
It would be stupid to pollute and encourage that, because yes it has an immediate impact on things. It makes life miserable to see that all the time. But I am talking about a bigger picture here...a different time scale that these studies never really seem to address.
We can't look at these things and explain them on small scales, and yet many seem to try. They are, IMO, just missing a lot of information.
But hey, it is just my opinion, OK?
phixer
Active Member
Very well said Ophiura. Did you know that many glaciers have been growing in size and several animals have been removed from the endagered species list. The tiny window that science and technology has enabled us to record is just a speck compaired to the millions of years our planet has existed. I dont doubt that we are contributing to this by driving 6 ton SUVs but until things like gasoline become prohibitively expensive to the average consumer we will continue to waste it. Im considering a deisel because it can be run on vegetable oil, the conversion is so simple you wouldnt believe it. Ethanol also.
ophiura
Active Member
And in no way does this mean I do not respect the ocean or the environment. Rather, I spent a good hunk of my life and am deeply DEEPLY in debt to study animals that very few people even think about. I've done coastal cleanup and volunteered to talk to kids at schools about the ocean and taught, etc, etc, etc. They are not mutually exclusive things.
But my message is if you focus on the obvious, you may be missing things. This is very true of things like El Nino and hurricane seasons etc...there are scales that we can't really comprehend. Humans, IMO, can grasp very little of the processes at work on this planet. It is important to read these sorts of articles VERY critically, IMO.
I am not talking about ignoring pollution...even if that had NO impact we shouldn't allow it. We have to investigate other types of energy if for no other reason that hydrocarbons may eventually run out!
But "global warming" has come to mean "human induced" and that I DO NOT agree with as it is an oversimplified answer.
But my message is if you focus on the obvious, you may be missing things. This is very true of things like El Nino and hurricane seasons etc...there are scales that we can't really comprehend. Humans, IMO, can grasp very little of the processes at work on this planet. It is important to read these sorts of articles VERY critically, IMO.
I am not talking about ignoring pollution...even if that had NO impact we shouldn't allow it. We have to investigate other types of energy if for no other reason that hydrocarbons may eventually run out!
But "global warming" has come to mean "human induced" and that I DO NOT agree with as it is an oversimplified answer.
phixer
Active Member
Gas in Japan is over $2.00 a litre, thats 8 bucks a gallon. Here in Coronado it is closely approaching 3 bucks a gallon. When it his 4 dollars Im finished driving gasoline and will go to a vegideisel. Thats my limit, 4 bucks a gallon and Im done playing this game. If more folks would do this it would send a strong message to "the man" and help the enviornment eventually.
hottie79
Member
Ophiura, I hope I didn't come across as saying you didnt repect the ocean or environment, and I apologize if I did. I have much respect for you, as I have read your webpages as well as many of your posts. I am just so used to hearing from people that humans have no effect on the planet, or the "take what we want without the caring of consequence" attitude, and I apologize that I jumped to the conclusion that is what you were saying.
fraggle_a
Member
The truth is, we pour less toxins into the air now than we did 40 years ago.
Remeber the days oc choaking smog?. The hundereds of tones of sulfer we put into the atmosphere in the early part of the 19th centrury?.
Humans have been pooping and peeing into the rivers and sea ever since we were fish (or monkies or we just poped into existance as per your idea of our beginings). Only in the last 1000 years have we decided to try and chemicaly treat our waste before we pump it into the oceans. And when we do finnaly empty our defication into the sea, billions of healful bacteria are usualy released with it from the treatment plants.
Icecore samples show that the earth has an almost "Regular" temperature variation. But the earth itself doesnt age and change like we do.
Lets look at a small mirrical of nature.
Red Tide.
Anyone in florida can tel you that this is terrible. But we as humans have very little to do with it. But red tide can kill more fish in a week than an oil spill could. (and there is usualy a seficiant smell to back that up too). Of course, its not just fish either, red tide spreads into the avian population as they eat the dead fish, and also into humans as we eat the fish and inverts (oyster!, URGH!). Its amaxing that a tiny bacterial algee can cause so much damage.
Quite honestly. Im not worried about us doing so much damage as mother nature herself. There are mor destructive occurances in nature we have very little to do with. Ok, Ill admit most of the damage is because we like to put Mobile homes in tornado zones, Build multistory buildings next to fault lines and construct cities below sea level... but you get the idea....
As Ophiura says. As the sea warms, the corrals will simply "Move" or "Adapt". Its when the sea jumps 5 or 10 degrees in a year that corrals and other seabound livestock are going to suffor.
Remeber the days oc choaking smog?. The hundereds of tones of sulfer we put into the atmosphere in the early part of the 19th centrury?.
Humans have been pooping and peeing into the rivers and sea ever since we were fish (or monkies or we just poped into existance as per your idea of our beginings). Only in the last 1000 years have we decided to try and chemicaly treat our waste before we pump it into the oceans. And when we do finnaly empty our defication into the sea, billions of healful bacteria are usualy released with it from the treatment plants.
Icecore samples show that the earth has an almost "Regular" temperature variation. But the earth itself doesnt age and change like we do.
Lets look at a small mirrical of nature.
Red Tide.
Anyone in florida can tel you that this is terrible. But we as humans have very little to do with it. But red tide can kill more fish in a week than an oil spill could. (and there is usualy a seficiant smell to back that up too). Of course, its not just fish either, red tide spreads into the avian population as they eat the dead fish, and also into humans as we eat the fish and inverts (oyster!, URGH!). Its amaxing that a tiny bacterial algee can cause so much damage.
Quite honestly. Im not worried about us doing so much damage as mother nature herself. There are mor destructive occurances in nature we have very little to do with. Ok, Ill admit most of the damage is because we like to put Mobile homes in tornado zones, Build multistory buildings next to fault lines and construct cities below sea level... but you get the idea....
As Ophiura says. As the sea warms, the corrals will simply "Move" or "Adapt". Its when the sea jumps 5 or 10 degrees in a year that corrals and other seabound livestock are going to suffor.
rogueangel
Member
That what the Chuck giveth he can taketh.... and roundhouse kicks the earth fixing the problem.