Salinity Problems

mike22cha

Active Member
Well my salinity has always been high, sometimes off the charts. Today, I guess I've been ignorant enough not to look before, but today I realized how much salt build up I have under my lights. Of course I don't check under my lights usualy, which may be why I didn't notice it. So a few minutes ago I cleaned my glass tops and parts of the filter. There was SOOO MUCH SALT!
But I'm wondering if that salt build up is effecting my salinity(kinda dumb, salt, salinity, but I'm wondering about the build up on top of the glass) and if that high salinity is causing HLLE(I got the grounding probe, and I'm going to see if I can add a few things to the fishes diet).
My salinity right now is: 36ppt
SG: 1.027
 

thangbom

Active Member
you should keep salt creep down to a min.. anything that salt froma salt creep lands on is gonna die.. just wipe things down once in a while and you will be ok..
YzGyz
 

tinmanny

Member
you should just scrape salt off everything it can hold enough water to conduct electricity so you should wipe things clean as stated in the first reply and why are you keeping the salinity so high do you ad salt water or just RO water for evap you should do a water change and use a lower salinity with each change to bring it to about 1.024
Good luck
Manny
 

maxalmon

Active Member
I may get corrected on this, but isn't elevated salinity abrassive to a fish? Removes the protective slim coat they have which can lead to a host of problems? Jim
 

dogstar

Active Member
Salt creep does not raise salinity, it acually lowers it because unlike evaporation, it removes some salts from the water. unless large chunks are falling back in...
36ppt is not terribly high...what is temperature of the water ?
 

tinmanny

Member
it is true that salt creep lowers the salinity but it can only be lowered to 1.027 if it was higher in the first place
I suggest that it be brought to a good testing place like your lfs or a couple if possible then clean up and lower it back to 1.024 or 1.026 tops
Good luck
Manny

PS hypo is very dangerous when done improperly so keeping track os the salt is important
on another note fluctuations in any variable is not good for the tank ever
 

mike22cha

Active Member
What are the salt creeps? My water level is high and may be touching the salt build up so I don't know if some of the salt is falling back into the tank. And if it is removing the protective slim coat like Maxalmon said then that could explain HLLE.
 

maxalmon

Active Member
Salt creep is normal in just about any marine tank, nothing you can do about it. It can be minimized by eliminating spashing etc...
IMO I would purchase a refractometer and slowly get your readings down to 1.025 and keep them there, most fish and corals can tolerate moderate changes but this is not an area that you want to mess with. Hydrometers are not accurate, especially the ones with floating arms.....In order for you to enjoy the tank a little more attention should be payed to the water perameters. Once water chemistry is perfect, then it's usually smooth sailing.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Hmm. I dont know about elevated SG causing trouble for fish. I run all of my reef tanks at 1.027 at 79-81 degrees F. I havent lost a fish in a very long time nor have I had any trouble with any inverts. occasionally if I am lax in topping off my tanks the Sg will make it as high as 1.030 (I highly reccomend against allowing that) but I havent lost a fish in over 2 years. the last death was a carpet surfing firefish. of course I dont add fish to my tanks anymore. so my tanks are pretty much stable in bioload. I do have a tang, and he is not showing any signs of HLLE but I have only had him for 3-4 months. just smoething to think about, not really drawing any conclusions either way on the subject, just another point of view is all.
 

maxalmon

Active Member
I don't like to mess with salinty and I feel that most people take it for granted, it's a fairly complicated process for fish and their organs to deal with, here's a copy and past article by Jim Mcnulty...
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Actually the term osmoregulation is the end result of a complex process. Before this can be achieved, a large number of physiological processes must take place utilizing several key anatomical structures. The organs involved include, but are not limited to, the gill membrane, the kidney, and blood. The desired result at the end of these processes is to achieve and maintain the proper balance of salt and water in the body, avoid dehydration, and have efficient gas exchange.
Marine fish, their internal salt content is less than that of the surrounding water. They loose water by osmosis and gain salts by diffusion. The effect is also worsened by a more permeable membrane. Marine fish also drink large amounts of water but their kidney functions differently. They pass small amounts of very dilute urine. Between 7 to 35% of their body weight is drank each day. Most of the H2O is retained to counteract the H2O lost via osmosis at the gill. Marine fish produce a daily urine amount about 1/10 to 1/20 of freshwater fishes. Terrestrial vertebrates produce approximately 1.5% of their total body weight in urine daily. Freshwater fish produce 20% daily! As you can see, marine fish pass considerably less urine than freshwater fishes.
.
Salt water has approximately 8 tablespoons of Na+ per gallon. Only freshwater evaporates leaving the Na+ behind. Increasing the Na causes great strain on the osmoregulatory process of every fish in the tank, causing them to use more energy to battle the changing osmotic pressure. This causes increased stress levels leading to infection and disease problems.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
now the impression I am getting from that is that changing the levels is bad not nessecarily a higher level. It seems a set level would allow them to adjust their osmoregulation to the parameters. constant shifting puts pressure on the system to adapt contantly to the shifting parameters. hmm. I think I need to do more research into this subject. its an interesting line of thought. my curiosity has been piqued.
 

maxalmon

Active Member
Small shifts IMO are not a problem, in the wild fish swim in and out of various water columns, surge zones etc...It's when we place them in a constant hypersaline envirnoment that the problems will arise. This is an area that I'm just now starting to study, I'm kinda reserving my opionions until I can form a more detailed understanding of what happens under each conditon.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by maxalmon
I'm kinda reserving my opionions until I can form a more detailed understanding of what happens under each conditon.
me too thats why I made my initial statement as a no conclusions drawn, style statement. I really dont understand the longterm impacts of high salinity well enough to provide a concrete advice platform.
 

mike22cha

Active Member
Well as you guys may know, I'm trying to redo my tank, which may mean switching fish around and getting new ones. With the sg and salinity this high, that means I can't move my 2xchromises and 1xCB angel to my 20g, and I can't get rid of my lawnmower blenny and clowns, and I also cant get new fish.
So these fish may be fine, but moving them to a tank with normal SG could be bad for everyone.
I do about 10g water changes per week, which isn't much for a 125g. I think i'm going to do a 10g water change with DI water soon, and see how the water parameters are doing in the middle of this week.
I know my hydormeter is pretty bad, but I don't got the money to get a nice one. Or is there a cheap one?
 

maxalmon

Active Member
Eric, here's some info that might be interesting....This deserves some serious observation and research as it's one of the areas that is kinda vague.
quote "Marine vs. Fresh"
by Jim McNulty
Somebody Salt Me
March 1999 newsletter - The Tropical Fish Society of R.I.
Hey Fishheads,
This month we will thoroughly explore the process known as osmoregulation. Actually the term osmoregulation is the end result of a complex process. Before this can be achieved, a large number of physiological processes must take place utilizing several key anatomical structures. The organs involved include, but are not limited to, the gill membrane, the kidney, and blood. The desired result at the end of these processes is to achieve and maintain the proper balance of salt and water in the body, avoid dehydration, and have efficient gas exchange.
The membrane of the gill of all fishes is suspended between the blood and the water. This acts as an effective barrier, selectively allowing certain substances to pass through it while denying others passage. This is known as semipermeability. Because of the differences of salt content in their respective environments, freshwater and marine fish face very different osmotic problems. To fully grasp the problem this creates, we must first understand the basic processes at work. They are diffusion and osmosis. Both play a key role in how the gill works.
Diffusion is the random distribution of substances throughout the space available to them. Molecules are in constant motion. When temperature is increased, it causes them to move even faster. These concentrated molecules seek to move from areas of higher concentrations to areas of lower concentration thus achieving equilibrium. Often the effect of a semipermeable membrane is to override the forces of diffusion. When a solution causes a differential flow through the semipermeable membrane, it is said to exert osmotic pressure. Only an equalized osmotic pressure would stop the flow of water through the membrane. The term osmosis is simply the diffusion of water. The gill membrane allows the passage of many different molecules. Sodium (Na+), chloride (Cl-), water (H2O), respiratory gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2) and others. When concentrated solutions move to lower areas in this way, no energy is expelled. This occurs via osmotic pressure and is called passive transport. Other factors in osmoregulation do require energy such as respiration, blood flow, kidney function, etc.. Even a seemingly resting fish is still expending a great deal of energy to maintain it's internal salt to water ratio. This is especially so in captive specimens due to the fluctuating salinity level of the home aquarium.
In order to simplify and properly explore the differences between fresh and saltwater fish, in regards to osmoregulation, we must address the two groups separately. Many substances are passing in and out of the gill simultaneously. As Na+ and H2O pass inward for osmoregulation, ammonium ions (NH4) and hydrogen ions (H+) pass outward. Freshwater fish face two problems: 1) getting rid of excess water and 2) maintaining proper salt content in their bodies. Their bodies need to maintain a higher level of salt than the surrounding water. As H2O passes in through their gill, Na+ is lost. To counter act this problem, freshwater fish drink constantly to maintain proper ionic levels. These ions obtained from drinking are transferred to the blood through the kidney via the "Bowman's capsule". Ions obtained through osmosis at the gill have a direct link to the blood via specialized "Chloride cells" in the gill. The efficient kidney enables the fish to excrete H2O very rapidly as a dilute urine. Na+ loss is greatly reduced by efficient reabsorption from the urine before it is excreted.
****has top be posted in 2 parts due to size restriction*****
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let me know what your conculusion are or if you have any insight or other links...Jim
 

maxalmon

Active Member
2nd part
"Marine fish experience just the opposite effect because their internal salt content is less than that of the surrounding water. They loose water by osmosis and gain salts by diffusion. The effect is also worsened by a more permeable membrane. Marine fish also drink large amounts of water but their kidney functions differently. They pass small amounts of very dilute urine. Between 7 to 35% of their body weight is drank each day. Most of the H2O is retained to counteract the H2O lost via osmosis at the gill. Marine fish produce a daily urine amount about 1/10 to 1/20 of freshwater fishes. Terrestrial vertebrates produce approximately 1.5% of their total body weight in urine daily. Freshwater fish produce 20% daily! As you can see, marine fish pass considerably less urine than freshwater fishes.
Yes, both groups have the same organs but they work quite differently. Evolution has helped these fish adapt to their respective environments. How does all this relate to aquarists? By understanding a little something about fish anatomy and physiology, we can better provide the proper environment the fish need to be healthy. If you have an overcrowded freshwater tank with each fish producing 20% of it's body weight daily in urine, plus feces, plus uneaten food, and plant decay, it's easy to understand the need for a 10% H2O change weekly.
How about a salt water tank? You have a tank running with fish in it. You neglect it for 3 weeks allowing 5 gallons of H2O to evaporate. Salt water has approximately 8 tablespoons of Na+ per gallon. Only freshwater evaporates leaving the Na+ behind. Now you have 40 extra tablespoons of Na+ left in your tank. This is causing great strain on the osmoregulatory process of every fish in the tank, causing them to use more energy to battle the changing osmotic pressure. This causes increased stress levels leading to infection and disease problems.
Often, aquarists look for the "quick fix" for a problem they notice. They attempt to treat the symptom as if it were the actual problem. To be successful, we must learn to read the symptoms and let them tell us what the real problem is. By maintaining proper Na+ levels and performing regular H2O changes, we go a long way in providing what our animals need to thrive for us. All books used to research and create this column are available through the library of the "Tropical Fish Society of RI".
Jim Mcnulty
References
Saltwater Aquariums by Stephen Spotta
Aquariology: The Science of Fish Health Management by John Gratzek
The Book of the Marine Aquarium by Nick Dakin"
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let me know what your conculusion are or if you have any insight or other links...Jim
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by maxalmon
This is causing great strain on the osmoregulatory process of every fish in the tank, causing them to use more energy to battle the changing osmotic pressure.
heres the line that kind of stand out to me. the changing osmotic pressure, I'm thinking that this kind of implies one thing we have all been stating for a long time, keeping a system stable more than the exact levels play a key role. it kind of sounds like he is saying that battleing the shifting parameters is the most straining part.
but that may be a bias on my part as it falls with my theory of constant rather than a specific parameter.
It definatly indicates that allowing a great deal of time between top offs is bad (this we knew but its nice to see ceartain things re-enforced) stability is key here, now I just need to find out if a higher salinity is actually stressful to the osmo regulatory process, or if it is JUST the the swings that are harmfull. he did mention "extra" salt wich could be indicitave of too high a salinity putting strain on the subjects.
I havent came accross anything really eludicating yet on the subject. mostly vauge references and hints at proper levels being anywhere from 1.021 (wich is low for inverts and isnt even near NSW levels) to 1.026 wich falls closer to the NSW levels. I'm having a hard time coming accross much enlightening material on the web. I'll keep digging.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Marine fish (teleosts) have the exact opposite problem to that
encountered by freshwater teleosts. Their body fluids are, again, 1/3
of that of sea water but this time they are in sea water so their
body fluids are hypoosmotic to their environment. As a result they
will tend to lose water by osmosis to the environment through their
skin but mostly through their gills. Consequently, they have
developed mechanisms and behaviour to compensate for this water loss.
Firstly, the kidneys of marine teleosts are modified in such a way
that very little water is extracted from the blood, some species even
lack certain kidney structures and can't eliminate water (Gordon,
1977; Moyle and Cech, 1982). This results in a reduction in the loss
of water by the production of urine. However, water is still being
lost by the gills and this cannot be stopped, so the only method left
is to somehow replace the water as quickly as it is lost. Marine
teleosts accomplish this by actually drinking water, the most
reliable drinking rates reported in the literature range from 3-10
ml/(kg hr) (Gordon, 1977). However, drinking water by itself cannot
solve the problem, a complex series of events must first occur in the
digestive tract. These events are not yet well understood but it is
known that most of the water is absorbed as are the monovalent ions
Na+ and Cl- (they are, after all, drinking salt water!), while the
divalent ions (such as magnesium and sulfates) are excreted by the
kidneys (Gordon, 1977). Sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) also move by
diffusion into the body through the gills. Therefore, Na+ and Cl-
ions will accumulate in the body of the fish and must be eliminated,
this is accomplished by special cells in the gills called chloride
cells, which me these ions out of the body by active transport (Moyle
and Cech, 1982; Gordon, 1977).
From the above information some practical tips for the hobbyist can
be gained. Since marine fish must constantly expel various solutes,
such as sodium and chloride ions, against an osmotic gradient, a
great deal of energy is required. Therefore, anything that you can do
to lower the osmotic gradient will benefit the fish in terms of
energy expenditure. The simplest way of doing this is to lower the
salinity of the water as much as possible, particularly for a fish in
distress (i.e. diseased). This alone can sometimes be enough to ease
their burden. Of course any such change must be extremely gradual and
must not get to the point where the fish is in obvious stress.
Another problem comes when invertebrates are added, especially the
soft-bodied ones such as anemones and corals; a drop in salinity can
be disastrous for them. Since marine fish produce very concentrated
urine, their waste products can pollute a tank far quicker than a
freshwater fish which produces much more dilute wastes. That is why
you can usually put in many more freshwater fish than marine fish in
the same volume of water. That is why paying attention to the water
quality of a marine tank is so much more critical than in a
freshwater tank. With the advent of dry/wet filter systems from
Europe, the load in marine aquaria can now be greatly increased due
to the superior ability of the filter to handle waste products. That
is why the so called "mini-reef" systems are becoming so popular with
hobbyists, many more animals can be kept in a smaller volume of water
with little risk of pollution.
Fish Biology
Osmoregulation: Please give me a drink!
by J. Charles Delbeek M.Sc.
here are two paragraphs that break it down rather well. seems it is more work for the fish the higher the salinity. so it seems I was slightly incorrect in thinking its not hard on the fish at higher salinities. I wont swear this as gospel or anything but it seems relevant and accurate, the auther reads as a knowledgable person....
 

tinmanny

Member
This is all realy good Information but and I do say but we are talking to a person who has different salinity in all the tanks and is concerned with buying more why not go to a good sg level in all tanks and then moving and buying fish is not a problem the matter here seems to be that a person has a salinity of 1.027 with salt creep what was it with no salt creep 1.031 for this particular person it would be a much smartrer idea to adjust all the tanks to one salinity than to fool with the problems that can arise by moving items around. Then they could decide to go to whatever salinity they want in all of them and watch the salt creep because as stated before the salinity is set at 1.027 and after salt creep it is 1.024 that is bad
So get a constant then play with the higher levels if you want
Good luck
Manny

J.M.O.
 
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