Salt Water Aquarium Setup?

[da fish guy]

I'm new to salt water tanks with some experience with fresh water. What I wanted to know is why I never see a salt water tank without ugly rocks and sand in them. I mean I understand some fish have certain leaving perimeters that they must have but I mean is it really that necessary. Why can't you just have ornaments with fake vegetation and fake (or real) colorful gravel or even stones like you see in fresh water aquariums. And let's say there are fish with special living accommodations like an eel for example, just provide something tubular or cave like so he can hide their. I mean I know that their are certain fish that do a lot of grazing like a blue hippo tang would do for example, but I mean if you feed it it's pellet or flake food and every now and than some seaweed ruberbanded to a stone it'll be alright.

 

[roadie996]

The sand and rock aid in biological filtration. Plus on the majority of gravel and fake ornaments you can buy for fresh water are used with dye that can bleed off into the water.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by roadie996
http:///forum/post/3127125
The sand and rock aid in biological filtration. Plus on the majority of gravel and fake ornaments you can buy for fresh water are used with dye that can bleed off into the water.
The bio filter takes care of that though, or a combination of a filter with filter media in it and an old school under gravel bio filter were the gravel or stones are the bio component although most water filters with the filter media inside usually bring a bubbler built in. "Dye that can bleed off into the water"... well gold fish are extremely delicate fish and aren't very hardy and that doesn't seem to be a problem as these paints are "fish safe"-non toxic and water based dyes. Even so, the filter should filter out any impurities.

 

[braydonosu]

I'm sure that you could probably get away with a 'pretty' aquarium - I have seen old school fish only tanks that have crushed coral and fake or dried coral skeletons. I'd be willing to bet that you could probably keep quite a few different kinds of fish alive providing you have good enough filtration (Bio, Chem ...)
People keep 'ugly' rocks in the tanks because it is more naturalistic than a bright red substrate with fake pink plants. To each his own, but in my opinion I would rather have the base rock and live rock as a place to attach corals, for micro-organisms to hide and breed, and create fantastic aquascapes.

 

[roadie996]

Originally Posted by da fish guy
http:///forum/post/3127134
The bio filter takes care of that though, or a combination of a filter with filter media in it and an old school under gravel bio filter were the gravel or stones are the bio component although most water filters with the filter media inside usually bring a bubbler built in. "Dye that can bleed off into the water"... well gold fish are extremely delicate fish and aren't very hardy and that doesn't seem to be a problem as these paints are "fish safe"-non toxic and water based dyes. Even so, the filter should filter out any impurities.
You will learn that salt water fish are entirely more finicky then goldfish. I have seen goldfish living in absolute terrible conditions, but still thriving. Where on the other hand, an undergravel filter will not allow uneaten food and detirus to be filtered out. This lets them decay and create high ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Those 3 things kill salt water fish very quickly when at high levels.
but like the last guy said, to each their own. If you want to do it, then definitely go for!

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by braydonosu
http:///forum/post/3127140
I'm sure that you could probably get away with a 'pretty' aquarium - I have seen old school fish only tanks that have crushed coral and fake or dried coral skeletons. I'd be willing to bet that you could probably keep quite a few different kinds of fish alive providing you have good enough filtration (Bio, Chem ...)
People keep 'ugly' rocks in the tanks because it is more naturalistic than a bright red substrate with fake pink plants. To each his own, but in my opinion I would rather have the base rock and live rock as a place to attach corals, for micro-organisms to hide and breed, and create fantastic aquascapes.

Sorry I was so blunt about the rocks I actually like corals and multicolored anemones as well but it's just to expensive and complicated to keep up with it. BTW thanks for the respond, oh and another thing. About how much water should you take out at a water change (lets say in a 50 g tank)? And should you ever do a full water change and full tank cleanup.

 

[contraband629]

Originally Posted by da fish guy
http:///forum/post/3127145
Sorry I was so blunt about the rocks I actually like corals and multicolored anemones as well but it's just to expensive and complicated to keep up with it. BTW thanks for the respond, oh and another thing. About how much water should you take out at a water change (lets say in a 50 g tank)? And should you ever do a full water change and full tank cleanup.
10% water change every week. So in your case 5g a week.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by roadie996
http:///forum/post/3127141
You will learn that salt water fish are entirely more finicky then goldfish. I have seen goldfish living in absolute terrible conditions, but still thriving. Where on the other hand, an under gravel filter will not allow uneaten food and detirus to be filtered out. This lets them decay and create high ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Those 3 things kill salt water fish very quickly when at high levels.
but like the last guy said, to each their own. If you want to do it, then definitely go for!
Hmm, I don't know about gold fish thriving in terrible conditions; most if not all in your fish tank die a few days after water chemistry is off so... Well I said that it would only be present in a situation where you can have both a water filter (the filter cartridge type) and an under gravel type. Actually the bacteria that breed in the gravel and filter(a plastic plate with holes) process this ammonia and convert it into nitrite and then nitrate. Just pointing out another option.

 

[uneverno]

A good deal of what's used for freshwater gravel and rocks is not saltwater safe. Mostly because it contains heavy metals which, while they don't dissolve in fresh water, do in salt. Heavy metals kill invertebrates, and in sufficient quantity, fish as well.
The inverse is true to an extent as well. With the exception of African Cichlids, calcerous gravel and rocks are undesireable, and can even be lethal in FW.
Undergravel filters become clogged w/ detritus rather quickly, thereby drastically reducing their biological filtration capability. I wouldn't use an undergravel in FW either. Long term, they become impossible to maintain, thus necessitating the full tank tear down/cleanup you describe. That's an iffy proposition w/ a FW tank. With a SW tank it's extremely undesirable. Even just moving a tank, a great deal more care has to be taken w/ SW than FW to do it successfully.

 

[jetskiking]

What you are asking can and has been done to an extent. We used to run undergravel filters on a regular basis back in the day. Technology has come a long way in the saltwater aqurium industry and people have discovered better ways. Most of what we put in our tanks is for function. Live rock provides more biological filtration, The "sands" we use are typically aragonite or crushed coral that add to the buffering compacity. These things also create a more natural habitat for our aquatic animals. You also see the freshwater aquarium industry going in this direction. Think about most any cichlid tank you see.
As far as goldfish go They are some of the hardiest fish around. They can live in a huge range of temps, water quality, low oxygen enviroments. I have a 2000g goldfish/koi pond in my back yard. So I have alot of insite into this. Like stated above Goldfish can live in muck.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3127180

A good deal of what's used for freshwater gravel and rocks is not saltwater safe. Mostly because it contains heavy metals which, while they don't dissolve in fresh water, do in salt. Heavy metals kill invertebrates, and in sufficient quantity, fish as well.
The inverse is true to an extent as well. With the exception of African Cichlids, calcerous gravel and rocks are undesireable, and can even be lethal in FW.
Undergravel filters become clogged w/ detritus rather quickly, thereby drastically reducing their biological filtration capability. I wouldn't use an undergravel in FW either. Long term, they become impossible to maintain, thus necessitating the full tank tear down/cleanup you describe. That's an iffy proposition w/ a FW tank. With a SW tank it's extremely undesirable. Even just moving a tank, a great deal more care has to be taken w/ SW than FW to do it successfully.
I see what you're saying about the metals affecting certain animals. I know starfish for one are very intolerable to any kind of change. Their should be salt safe stuff though right? Oh, and yea that is definitely one of the biggest problems with the under gravel system. Yea, I can see now why it's not so desirable since you would have to re acclimate the fish every time you do a full tank cleanup and because they are salt water fish they wont take the change lightly huh? By the way, Another person in here told me that if I have a 50 g (don't have it yet) tank than I should do a 10%(5g) water change every week. Is this about right or can it be every two weeks?

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by jetskiking
http:///forum/post/3127189
What you are asking can and has been done to an extent. We used to run undergravel filters on a regular basis back in the day. Technology has come a long way in the saltwater aqurium industry and people have discovered better ways. Most of what we put in our tanks is for function. Live rock provides more biological filtration, The "sands" we use are typically aragonite or crushed coral that add to the buffering compacity. These things also create a more natural habitat for our aquatic animals. You also see the freshwater aquarium industry going in this direction. Think about most any cichlid tank you see.
As far as goldfish go They are some of the hardiest fish around. They can live in a huge range of temps, water quality, low oxygen enviroments. I have a 2000g goldfish/koi pond in my back yard. So I have alot of insite into this. Like stated above Goldfish can live in muck.
Thanks for the insight.
Now about the goldfish... that may be true but at least with store bought aqua cultured goldfish, they are notoriously delicate. Just a few days ago in fact my buddies friend's gold fish tank died... ALL! due to too much ammonia (something they release in large amounts of) that they produce in the water(i guess his filter busted or something)

 

[jetskiking]

Originally Posted by da fish guy
http:///forum/post/3127211
I see what you're saying about the metals affecting certain animals. I know starfish for one are very intolerable to any kind of change. Their should be salt safe stuff though right? Oh, and yea that is definitely one of the biggest problems with the under gravel system. Yea, I can see now why it's not so desirable since you would have to re acclimate the fish every time you do a full tank cleanup and because they are salt water fish they wont take the change lightly huh? By the way, Another person in here told me that if I have a 50 g (don't have it yet) tank than I should do a 10%(5g) water change every week. Is this about right or can it be every two weeks?
The salt safe stuff is the sand,aragonite,cruhed coral everybody is using. Can you use other stuff? Yes you can but you better research before you do. Problem is that saltwater is a corrosive and will make alot more stuff leach than freshwater.
The rule of thumb most people use is 10% a week. Going two weeks you will most likely be fine also. There are alot of variables. Unlike freshwater and Fish only in which the main reason to do water changes is nutrien export, reefs use water changes for nutrient import also. Alot of things can effect how much you do a water change. Things like tank size, nutrient expot/import, how established is the sytem. I have seen large established systems with other means of export/import go for over a year without anything but top offs. I personally have gone six months before. I don't recommend this but it has been done.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by jetskiking
http:///forum/post/3127224
The salt safe stuff is the sand,aragonite,cruhed coral everybody is using. Can you use other stuff? Yes you can but you better research before you do. Problem is that saltwater is a corrosive and will make alot more stuff leach than freshwater.
The rule of thumb most people use is 10% a week. Going two weeks you will most likely be fine also. There are alot of variables. Unlike freshwater and Fish only in which the main reason to do water changes is nutrien export, reefs use water changes for nutrient import also. Alot of things can effect how much you do a water change. Things like tank size, nutrient expot/import, how established is the sytem. I have seen large established systems with other means of export/import go for over a year without anything but top offs. I personally have gone six months before. I don't recommend this but it has been done.
ooooooh, ok. I overlooked the fact that it is more corrosive. It all makes more sense now to me. Thing is I plan on getting a 50 g tank two years down the road(since i'm not allowed to have anything bigger than a gallon were i'm living at now... dumb land lord

) with all peaceful fish (community tank) and trying to get as much information as possible during that time, thanx for the help.

 

[uneverno]

Originally Posted by da fish guy
http:///forum/post/3127211
I see what you're saying about the metals affecting certain animals. I know starfish for one are very intolerable to any kind of change.
Most invertebrates are. FW is an entirely different game. Plants can be used to take up nitrates much more easily than they can in SW, most FW tanks do not have inverts as inhabitants, just as basic examples.
Their should be salt safe stuff though right?
There is. I just don't think that what you are looking for falls in that category.
Oh, and yea that is definitely one of the biggest problems with the under gravel system. Yea, I can see now why it's not so desirable since you would have to re acclimate the fish every time you do a full tank cleanup and because they are salt water fish they wont take the change lightly huh?
It's not so much the fish, it's the tank itself. You're setting up a delicate ecosystem. Tearing it down destroys the balance you've worked so hard to establish.
By the way, Another person in here told me that if I have a 50 g (don't have it yet) tank than I should do a 10%(5g) water change every week. Is this about right or can it be every two weeks?
It's a general rule. The size of the tank is not so much an issue as the bioload is. Do whatever works for your tank. I change about 25% per month - sometimes all at once, sometimes in smaller weekly intervals. Your tank will definitely let you know when it needs to be done. If you push it, it can cost you lifeforms and money both.
The best I can say is you need to get a feel for it. Each tank is different, IME.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3127412
Most invertebrates are. FW is an entirely different game. Plants can be used to take up nitrates much more easily than they can in SW, most FW tanks do not have inverts as inhabitants, just as basic examples.
There is. I just don't think that what you are looking for falls in that category.
It's not so much the fish, it's the tank itself. You're setting up a delicate ecosystem. Tearing it down destroys the balance you've worked so hard to establish.
It's a general rule. The size of the tank is not so much an issue as the bioload is. Do whatever works for your tank. I change about 25% per month - sometimes all at once, sometimes in smaller weekly intervals. Your tank will definitely let you know when it needs to be done. If you push it, it can cost you lifeforms and money both.
The best I can say is you need to get a feel for it. Each tank is different, IME.
Thanks for the info. Actually, I've have more or less an idea of what I want the tank to look like. first of I want to use real sand as the substrate with ornaments such as a large sunken spanish galleon or a castle or a skull such as of a dinosaur... or possibly greek ruins as the theme and plastic plants as the vegetation. of course though I plan on having crevasses and cave like areas were they can hide. oh, and also the ornaments will all be salt water safe (i've looked into it). for filtration I plan on having a canister filter witch utilizes all 4 types of filtration (bio, chemical, mechanical, and UV) from JBJ. so, what do you think about the set up?.

 

[ryancw01]

Well, that would certainly be different. I think when most people create a saltwater tank, they are trying to recreate the natural enviornment like a coral reef, even if the coral reef in the tank is completely fake and plastic it still looks real. I have seen this a lot in restaurants where they will have big saltwater tanks and all the rocks and coral are fake, but it still looks pretty cool and the average person really cannot tell the difference.
To each thier own, but in my opinion I would think that those decorations would look kind of weird with a saltwater aquarium. Also, I know a lot of people use them still, but canister filters are freshwater technology too. You would be better of trying a small sump to start.

 

[teresaq]

OK, here is my take. This is your tank. You set it up as you like, Though you will need something to seed the bacteria into your tank.
if you want fake ornaments then get them, just add a couple small pieces of live rock too. build you galleon into a rock wall so it looks like a sunken ship. Barrie the skull in the sand like its been there for years. Just be sure to use real live sand (not the bagged stuff, but real sand from the ocean floor) and a some real live rock-(like they sell here) this will give you a much better start and a more stable tank
now for canisters. I use them, lots of people do, you just have to be sure to keep them clean or they can cause problems.
TeresaQ

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by TeresaQ
http:///forum/post/3127689
OK, here is my take. This is your tank. You set it up as you like, Though you will need something to seed the bacteria into your tank.
If you want fake ornaments then get them, just add a couple small pieces of live rock too. Build you galleon into a rock wall so it looks like a sunken ship. Barrie the skull in the sand like its been there for years. Just be sure to use real live sand (not the bagged stuff, but real sand from the ocean floor) and a some real live rock-(like they sell here) this will give you a much better start and a more stable tank
now for canisters. I use them, lots of people do, you just have to be sure to keep them clean or they can cause problems.
TeresaQ
I like your idea, that would be a good way to incorporate healthy good for the fish live rock. That's actually pretty much what I had in mind. I mean, don't get me wrong though I don't want to make this look like the bottom of a pond

but more like the bottom of the ocean. So, in other words I'm trying to go semi real with this tank.

 

[da fish guy]

Originally Posted by Ryancw01
http:///forum/post/3127671
Well, that would certainly be different. I think when most people create a saltwater tank, they are trying to recreate the natural enviornment like a coral reef, even if the coral reef in the tank is completely fake and plastic it still looks real. I have seen this a lot in restaurants where they will have big saltwater tanks and all the rocks and coral are fake, but it still looks pretty cool and the average person really cannot tell the difference.
To each thier own, but in my opinion I would think that those decorations would look kind of weird with a saltwater aquarium. Also, I know a lot of people use them still, but canister filters are freshwater technology too. You would be better of trying a small sump to start.
I got the canister idea from an aquatic store(fresh and salt) on line that says that they really recommend them not because they want to sell them but because that's what they use and what they say is most convenient then a large expensive system like having to buy all the components separately.