Saltwater Ick, Parasite Problem Solution For Ever...

[pipo]

Ok people I know every body in this hobbie has once looked for an answer to saltwater Ick or any other parasite related disease that our fish are suffering of, and after loosing almost all of my fish I started reading Im a Med Student, and after trying everyyyyyyyy commercial fish medicine and getting few or no result at all I decided to look for human medicine for parasite after reading something about it on the internet. In the practice we are not supposed to medicate our main tank but once you have placed a sick fish in it the parasite is in the tank even if your fish don’t manifest it and you could have a problem any time that’s the reason its always recommended to have a quarantine tank and have your fish on observation for about 2 weeks before placing it in the main tank, now it is also known that only 90% of people in this hobbie have QT tanks therefore this thread to kill any parasites for good you have to do this, when using the medicine Im talking about it kind of seem to work, the medicine Im talking about is Metronidazole, after using the dosage of 250mg per every 10 galls every 24 hours doing a 10% water change preferable every 3 days, it kind of controlled the parasite from growing even decreasing the amount of white spots or clouded eye in some cases and diminishing velveth but never killing the parasite at all, so then I went to my books and read about it it didn’t completely kill the parasite because the time the medicine works best is only 12 hours then the action of the medicine decreases, so I applied the human dosage afraid for what it might cause to my fish, and nothing happened the second day applying 250mg of Metronidazole every 12 hours my fish where like NEW

hahaha, it was like nothing happened to them they were happy like always, and feeding with no problem, I have anemones and crabs and 2 cleaners and they didn’t even act a little different they were the same all the time, I haven’t try it on Corals, but the action of the Metronidazole Should NOT kill the Corals, because it acts only on Parasites and some Bacteria IT WILL NOT KILL THE BENEFITIAL BACTERIA OF YOUR SUMP OR FILTER the way to apply metronidazole is:
Before treatment remove carbon bags and UV light filter. (not an option remove it)
Apply 250mg for every 10 gallons every 12 hours in the main tank or QT tank for 10 Days.
It would be good if you do a 10% water change every 3 days
Apply the treatment for 10 days.
After treatment do a 20% water Change
Put back in carbon to remove what ever is left of the metronidazole for 3 days
Then turn back on the UV light filter.
You will have happy fish and a healthy SaltWater Fish Tank.
Hope you find this helpful I hope to hear back from you.
Eli.

 

[1journeyman]

From an online medical site:
Metronidazole is an antibiotic effective against anaerobic bacteria and certain parasites. Anaerobic bacteria ...
Now, as anaerobic bacteria is found in deep sand beds and deep in the pores of live rock I would say this treatment in anything other than a FO tank is a bad idea. I'd also be concerned about treating it with many symbiotic corals for fear of what the issues might be.

 

[pipo]

from what I´ve done with my tank I´ve checked every 24 hours during the treatment Nitrites, Amonia, Hardness ETC... and all parameters are in order havent changed or anything, yes metronidazole does that, but also maintains our fish safe, and the bacteria will grow back in a few, besides the other bacteria we have would be still taking care of our nitrites and amonia, of course after treatment we would also have to add bacteria, thanks for the comment.
Eli.

 

[pipo]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
From an online medical site:
Metronidazole is an antibiotic effective against anaerobic bacteria and certain parasites. Anaerobic bacteria ...
Now, as anaerobic bacteria is found in deep sand beds and deep in the pores of live rock I would say this treatment in anything other than a FO tank is a bad idea. I'd also be concerned about treating it with many symbiotic corals for fear of what the issues might be.
like I said I havent try it on Coral, so I wouldnt really know about that.

 

[1journeyman]

Sorry. I should have better clarified. I lumped Anemones in with other symbiotic corals.
As the Ich life cycle is about 4 weeks long I'm not sure your treatment will work long term.
It may very well work, but I think after all the work, money and effort we put into our tanks simply setting up and running a cheap QT tank and treating with known methods (also cheaper methods) for ich are preferred.

 

[1journeyman]

Welcome to the forums, btw.

 

[beth]

Sorry to say, but not only is that medication not terribly effective for ich, the damage done to your tank for using it may be far reaching.
Hyposalinity and copper are the most effective choices for treating ich. Hyposalinity is the safest.

 

[al mc]

Metronidazole is a great antibiotic/antiprotozoal agent in mammals. While it may prove to be effective against Ich, I do not know of any studies (if anyone knows of one I would like to read it) that shows it will eliminate it entirely from a closed aquatic environment and whether it is entirely safe for inverts.
When I first entered this hobby and had not been a member of this forum my LFS suggested it. As I trusted them, I used it during an Ich outbreak. It did not appear to harm the few inverts I had in my tank and did eliminate the visble ICH on my fish (or did they choose to leave as part of their life cycle?)but the Ich did return. I wanted this medication to work. It would be great to have a bottle of medicine I could dump in my tank that would be safe and allow me to forgo the use of a QT.
The only thing that has consistently worked for me is hyposalinity and/or copper when it comes to Ich.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
Metronidazole is a great antibiotic/antiprotozoal agent in mammals. (or did they choose to leave as part of their life cycle?)but the Ich did return. I
Yep, absolutely just the life-cycle of the parasite. So many are lulled into trusting that ich is gone after using ineffective treatments, just to find out that the problem is really a ticking bomb.

 

[rudedog40]

This treatment worked for the ich on my blue hippo.
Just out of curiousity, are any of you Marine Biologist or have any specialized training in aquatics? You seem so adament that there's absolutely no other viable treatment for ich except hyposalinity or copper. Yea, I've read documents from marine studies that validate those treatments, but I still don't believe you can completely rid ich from an enclosed system like the saltwater aquariums we maintain. I see post after post with people trying to treat ich. Beth, journeyman, sep, all immediately state the "QT the fish and start hyposalinity" treatment before any further information is given about their situation. Yet, these same people will come back a couple of months later stating they got ich again, even after keeping their tank fallow for six weeks. Your response is "Oh, you must have the more resistant strain of ich that hypo isn't effective against. Do copper treatment". So there's more than one type of ich? I mentioned to journeyman about an aquaintence of mine who contracted ich on one of his tangs after putting it in a tank that had absolutely no fish in it for over two months, nor anything else added to it during that time. All I got was, "He must have added something that had the ich parasite on it, or the tang had it already." Absolutely no possibility that ich is just present in some form or fashion in every system. If you want to use hypo and copper as your ich treatment, more power to you. I just don't think you should be so closed minded about the possibility of other medication treatments that can work.

 

[al mc]

Rudedog....The debate is about what a person's individual goal in treament of Ich. If it is control (free of symptoms), many things will help and will work and is generally easier. If the goal is cure (elimination) then leaving the display/sump/refugium fish free for a minimum of six weeks, treating any fish that have been in an Ich environmenmt for at least three weeks with a course
of hyposalinity or copper then Qting anything that you will then add to the Dt
with QT (inverts, fish) gives you the best chance for elimination.
There is nothing wrong with having symptom free as your goal. I think the mods are trying to eliminate Ich from people's systems. I do not think they are closed minded. They just feel that this is their goal.

 

[1journeyman]

Rudedog, we're not close minded. In fact, I posted just above you on this thread "it may very well work...". I just believe in going for the "proven" method.
There are different subspecies of ich. One in particular has been found to be able to survive hypo. Though it appears to be rare.
For the record, a couple of the Mods here do have various levels of education in marine biology.

 

[sepulatian]

Many people on here, including myself, have kept completely ich free environments. I personally prefer hypo to medication. There are three proven methods for killing ich, they are copper, hyposalility, and lack of host. Neither of the two treatments can be done with inverts in the tank. There is a very good reason for that. Ich is an invert. You cannot hope to kill off the 'king' of inverts wihout killing other sensitive inverts. I have used "reef safe" meds before. They do not kill ich, they help to keep it off of the fish. Fish can live with ich if their immune system is high. The problem is that the parasite is continuing to thrive in the tank and will attack the weakest fish in the tank. All it takes if for several parasites to feed at once to have an explosion in the population of ich in the system. We are not closed minded but certain treatment options have withstood the test of time. These treatments work.

 

[rudedog40]

I'm in no way doubting your practices. I'm just really interested in the various options to treat ich. I fully agree that hypo and copper are the defacto methods for treating ich. The only problem I have with them is the drastic measures you have to make to do either of these treatments - setting up another tank (most of the time being less than half the size of your DT), moving all your fish over to a QT, possibly stressing them more than the effects of ich, and all the work involved keeping the salinity at 1.009 for over 3 weeks. The frustrating part is I read where people have gone through this excrutiating procedure, and they end up with ich yet again. Many of them have taken the precautions you recommend (QTing any new DT inhabitant, keeping DT fallow for 6 weeks), yet they still get ich in their DT.
That's why I disagree with the statements that you can completely remove ich from any tank environment. Yes, you may THINK you don't have ich in your DT, but do you really and truly know that it's gone? Is there any proven method to verify you don't have ich in your tank? Can you take a sample of your water, put it under a microscope, and see the ich parasite? What does an ich parasite even look like under a microscope? Give me a test that I can use to verify I have no ich in my tank. If I make a tank with ich in it 'host free' for 8 weeks, retest, and find no traces of the ich parasite present in the tank, then I will believe your theory that leaving a tank fallow for this long actually works.

 

[1journeyman]

Wow, a lot of different questions and points there to respond too:
Originally Posted by rudedog40
I'm in no way doubting your practices. I'm just really interested in the various options to treat ich. I fully agree that hypo and copper are the defacto methods for treating ich. The only problem I have with them is the drastic measures you have to make to do either of these treatments - setting up another tank (most of the time being less than half the size of your DT), moving all your fish over to a QT, possibly stressing them more than the effects of ich, and all the work involved keeping the salinity at 1.009 for over 3 weeks.
A QT tank is not only for avoiding ich. By placing new arrivals in a QT tank you allow them time to get used to captivity before introducing them into a competitive captive environment. In a QT you can monitor and get picky eaters to feed, examine for all diseases and parasites, etc. If a fish has ich it is already stressed. It has parasites burrowing under it's scales eating it's flesh

Keeping salinity at 1.009 is no more difficult than keeping a display tank at 1.026.
:
Originally Posted by rudedog40
The frustrating part is I read where people have gone through this excrutiating procedure, and they end up with ich yet again. Many of them have taken the precautions you recommend (QTing any new DT inhabitant, keeping DT fallow for 6 weeks), yet they still get ich in their DT.
Rudedog that just doesn't happen. There *might* be 1 or 2 mystery cases, but far and away the vast majority of failures end up being user error (impatience, improper salinity, not treating all fish, etc.)
:
Originally Posted by rudedog40
That's why I disagree with the statements that you can completely remove ich from any tank environment. Yes, you may THINK you don't have ich in your DT, but do you really and truly know that it's gone? Is there any proven method to verify you don't have ich in your tank? Can you take a sample of your water, put it under a microscope, and see the ich parasite? What does an ich parasite even look like under a microscope? Give me a test that I can use to verify I have no ich in my tank. If I make a tank with ich in it 'host free' for 8 weeks, retest, and find no traces of the ich parasite present in the tank, then I will believe your theory that leaving a tank fallow for this long actually works.
Rudedog, the "fallow theory" wasn't invented here. Expert aquarists (Calfo, Fenner, etc.) promote a fallow display tank as the prescribed method of treating ich (they also prescribe using a QT tank and various other means to avoid introducing it to begin with). We didn't pioneer the study of the ich parasite here. We do, however, try to promote other's to research and study it. The myth that ich is always in a tank has been promoted for years. In all honesty, that's like saying we all have mountain lions in our closets. A bit extreme of an example perhaps, but one is just as likely to spontaneuosly appear as the other.
Yes, you can see ich. Taking a sample of water and seeing it is hit and miss, but you can take a scraping of an injured or dead fish, stain the slide, and see the parasite. It appears as a round or slightly oblong "blob" with cilia around it's entire body. Plenty of pics of it on the web.
Hope that helps explain our position around here

 

[rudedog40]

A QT tank is not only for avoiding ich. By placing new arrivals in a QT tank you allow them time to get used to captivity before introducing them into a competitive captive environment. In a QT you can monitor and get picky eaters to feed, examine for all diseases and parasites, etc. If a fish has ich it is already stressed. It has parasites burrowing under it's scales eating it's flesh Keeping salinity at 1.009 is no more difficult than keeping a display tank at 1.026.
I have no arguments about keeping a QT tank in general. You are absolutely correct that it can keep a new fish from getting stressed being dumped into a competitive captive environment. Keeping salinity at 1.009 is no more difficult than keeping a display tank at 1.026? Sorry, I have to disagree with that statement. Keeping any constant salinity for long periods of time is no easy task. Mine changes 1 or 2 points all the time due to water evaporation from the lights. Water burnoff doesn't burn off the salt content. That stays. So if you have any kind of lights on your QT, you have the potential of changing your salinity by even .001 if you don't keep the water topped off with same salinity you're trying to keep (auto top-off system putting 1.026 water into a 1.026 system).
Rudedog that just doesn't happen. There *might* be 1 or 2 mystery cases, but far and away the vast majority of failures end up being user error (impatience, improper salinity, not treating all fish, etc.)
:
The guy told me this is exactly what happened. So he's lying to me to keep me from doing hypo on my fish for ich? Why would he lie to me, he has no reason to. As far a 'mystery cases', maybe we need to get a study started based on ich cases posted just from this forum. I can't count the number of ich threads I've read here where people say that ich just 'appeared' on their fish one day. Immediately you come back with "Oh you must have added SOMETHING to your tank that brought the ich in".
Yes, you can see ich. Taking a sample of water and seeing it is hit and miss, but you can take a scraping of an injured or dead fish, stain the slide, and see the parasite. It appears as a round or slightly oblong "blob" with cilia around it's entire body. Plenty of pics of it on the web.
OK, have you looked at your water recently to see if you have ich in your tank? You say it's "hit or miss" in finding it. Then how do you know 100% that you don't have ich in a 200 gallon tank? That's the problem, you can't. You just blindly go with the 'fallow theory' because a select group of aquarist did a study and decided that since they couldn't find any ich in their experiment tank after 6 weeks, then obviously ich can't survive for more than 6 weeks in ANY enclosed saltwater system.
Explain my situation. I put a 1" hippo in my tank over two months ago, and he showed signs of ich a week later. He was the only fish in the 4 I had at the time that showed signs of ich. I treated him with Ich Attack and garlic, and the ich was gone a week later. I haven't seen any signs of ich on any of my fish in over two months since that attack. All of them eat like pigs, and show no signs of stress. So do I still have ich in my tank? If I do, how do I know? If your 6 week theory holds true, and no fish shows ich for 6 weeks, then all the ich must have died because they haven't been attached to any host during that time period. Oh that's right, they're hiding INSIDE my fish. But wouldn't a fish show signs of stress if that were the case?

 

[1journeyman]

Keeping salinity in range is easy. Get the tank to the accepted salinity, mark a line on the glass, and fill every day, 2x a day if needed. Unless you have some serious evaporation or salt creep this will fix any issues with evaporation. you won't be topping off with same salinity water, but with RO/DI water.
I never said the guy was lying to you. You stated "many of them" and I said "that simply doesn't happen". I'm referring to the "many" properly done hypo treatments you say fail. I'm not referring to the friend of yours.
Feel free to start a thread asking people to post Hypo failures.
Rudedog, let's go at this from a different angle.
How do you think ich gets in a tank? I've sited experts in our hobby in regards to treatment and the life cycle of the parasite. Do you know of any studies that contradict the generally accepted understanding of the life cycle of the parasite?
In your case:
*You did not practice QT procedures. So either the ich came in on the new fish or was already in your tank.
*The ich disappeared a week later. Absolutely not surprising as the parasitic stage of ich happens to be 5-7 days.
*Fish can continue to eat and behave "normally" while infected. Many have noted an absence of scratching on even extremely infected fish.
*Yes, you still have ich in your tank. Why would you think you don't? You have a captive environment with optimum parameters. Your tank is simply not suffering from an ich outbreak at this time. There are low numbers of the parasite on your fish. I guess it is possible that all of your fish have developed a tolerance of the parasite and beat it off

I would bet, however, that it is just in low numbers and will not undergo a new outbreak under a fish becomes weak, stressed, etc.

 

[renogaw]

btw, i don't have ich in my tank
as for being close minded about hypo... pot meet kettle...

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Keeping salinity in range is easy. Get the tank to the accepted salinity, mark a line on the glass, and fill every day, 2x a day if needed. Unless you have some serious evaporation or salt creep this will fix any issues with evaporation. you won't be topping off with same salinity water, but with RO/DI water.
I never said the guy was lying to you. You stated "many of them" and I said "that simply doesn't happen". I'm referring to the "many" properly done hypo treatments you say fail. I'm not referring to the friend of yours.
Feel free to start a thread asking people to post Hypo failures.
Rudedog, let's go at this from a different angle.
How do you think ich gets in a tank? I've sited experts in our hobby in regards to treatment and the life cycle of the parasite. Do you know of any studies that contradict the generally accepted understanding of the life cycle of the parasite?
In your case:
*You did not practice QT procedures. So either the ich came in on the new fish or was already in your tank.
*The ich disappeared a week later. Absolutely not surprising as the parasitic stage of ich happens to be 5-7 days.
*Fish can continue to eat and behave "normally" while infected. Many have noted an absence of scratching on even extremely infected fish.
*Yes, you still have ich in your tank. Why would you think you don't? You have a captive environment with optimum parameters. Your tank is simply not suffering from an ich outbreak at this time. There are low numbers of the parasite on your fish. I guess it is possible that all of your fish have developed a tolerance of the parasite and beat it off

I would bet, however, that it is just in low numbers and will not undergo a new outbreak under a fish becomes weak, stressed, etc.
That's the point. I've accepted that I have ich in my tank. However, I'm stating that ANY tank has ich in it, in some degree or fashion. You may THINK you don't have ich in your tank, but do you have any way to prove it? That's where we disagree. You feel that since you left your tank fallow for six weeks, and you QT everything before you put it in your tank, there is absolutely no way you have ich in your tank. The problem is, you have no way to 100% verify this, unless you knock off one of your fish and do an autopsy on it. You could have a slightly infected fish and have no way of knowing it has ich until it starts exhibiting the outward symptoms. You also state you QT everything for three weeks. Do you hypo everything you put in your QT for three weeks, or just observe it for obvious symptoms? If you don't hypo it, how do you know it doesn't have ich? You recently told someone to QT their LR for three weeks. If he didn't hypo the LR, and there was some form of ich hiding on it, how would he know? The LR isn't going to exhibit little white spots on it. To follow your theory on the life cycle of ich, he would have to keep the LR in a fishless tank for at least 6 weeks to insure it didn't have ich. Otherwise, if it was in a QT tank with any salinity other than 1.009, he could still be infecting his tank with ich with this new piece of LR. This would hold the same for inverts or corals. Now if your QTing LR just to find parasitic worms or such, then I can agree QTing is viable solution for that. But the topic is ich. If you're QTing anything for less than six weeks, or not doing hypo on it if it's a fish, then to me you're just wasting your time if all you're trying to do is keep ich out of your DT.

 

[1journeyman]

Ok, I'm glad you posted that. I think I see where some of the confusion is.
Ich has a multi-stage life cycle. A tank that is "fallow" for 6 weeks breaks the life cycle of the parasite. They only live a couple of weeks. By removing the host you basically are eliminating "habitat" for a particular portion of the life cycle. The cysts continue to hatch, but die off without maturing to lay more eggs.
If you QT live rock for 3 weeks (I believe I actually posted I prefer 4 weeks for rock and inverts on the thread you are mentioning, but I may have said that on a different thread) then even if the rock is covered with free swimming ich and cysts you have removed the part of the life cycle they need to successfully reproduce. When you QT inverts and rock you are not killing the ich, you are breaking it's life cycle and allowing it to die off naturally.