Sand sifting star on its last (rotting) leg

[horsin1963]

As the title states I have a very large sand star that I thought was being nip on. it had a hole in the side of one of its legs. I have had this guy for a very long time and its in a 220 that has been running for a long time. I did hve a problem with ich and had to relocate all of my corals and inverts to another tank to drop salt level in my DT but it was taking so long to get the salt lowered I had move the fish to a different tank which they are still in there and over the ich thank god.. im now slowly raising there salt level back to normal level so I can get them back to the DT this has been going on months of trying to get things back to the norm... the dt is running great all of my corals look great. well back to the star.. hes now missing one leg completely and half of another. he goes into the sand for days at a time and each time he come out he looks worse dont know what to do with him.. I feel its something to do with the sand or something in the sand causing this... water params. are within the norm except for trates wich are a little high but they are slowly coming back down.. I had even takin the water out to have tested to make shure I havent tested wrong... high being about 25 right now... any help would be great.. pics are possible when I see him again...

 

[keith burn]

you got me but PM ophiura she is the sterfish guru

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by keith burn
http:///forum/post/2611842
you got me but PM ophiura she is the sterfish guru
thx I will do that..
I had done some reading about this, any ideas about bristle worms would they eat stars or would the star let them eat the legs like that.. I do have bristle worms and thought that they would be lunch for a pearlscale that I have in the tank. Also for anyone out there pearlscales will nip your corals, Dont trust your lfs.. read about your fish first. I wished I had read about him allthough he is a very beautiful fish I wished I didnt buy him now. thats impulse buying at its best.. live and learn. I guess, the hard way..
Ideas any one?? I'm still banging my head

 

[aquaknight]

He's starving to death. It happened back when we used to keep sand sifting stars in 29 and 65 gallon tanks. Apparently even 220gal's aren't enough to support them.
I probably would put him down, in a zip-lock with water and toss them into the freezer. Cold-blooded so they 'just go to sleep' and don't 'feel' anything.

 

[sepulatian]

He's starving to death. It happened back when we used to keep sand sifting stars in 29 and 65 gallon tanks. Apparently even 220gal's aren't enough to support them.
This is what I think as well. Unfortunately that is the fate of many of these stars. They strip the sand bed and then die from starvation.

 

[ophiura]

To clarify - did you drop the specific gravity in the DT with the star in it? Because if so, that would absolutely do it.
In most cases this is due to osmotic shock (either when new or after a major issue in the tank) or starvation (12-18 months). Most of these stars will starve in captivity though I would have thought you had a reasonable chance in that size tank.
Unless you have triggers, puffers or large wrasses it is unlikely predation. The disintegration is typical of both osmotic shock or starvation and may not be reversible.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2612319
To clarify - did you drop the specific gravity in the DT with the star in it? Because if so, that would absolutely do it.
In most cases this is due to osmotic shock (either when new or after a major issue in the tank) or starvation (12-18 months). Most of these stars will starve in captivity though I would have thought you had a reasonable chance in that size tank.
Unless you have triggers, puffers or large wrasses it is unlikely predation. The disintegration is typical of both osmotic shock or starvation and may not be reversible.
THX for the help, I guess I will put him to sleep. I hate to kill anything and/or watch things suffer.
As to answer your question about the salt level and the star. he was move to another tank, one that I have had set up for 5 plus years same tank I moved the corals to (55gal). Cant figure why he would starve with the growth that I have in the sand, Granted this tank is new (fall of last year) but the sand is not it had come from combining two different tanks. this star has been in three tanks that I know of, and isnt a spring chicken. How long do sand stars live in captivity? the specific gravity in the DT never got below 1.018 if I remember right so I wouldnt think I would of had anything die in the sand from the lower salt level. I was having so much of a problem getting it lowered in the DT I move the fish to a smaller tank, one that I could control better then I raised the salt in the DT back to my normal level and put everything back in it so I would not have things die from to much in the smaller tanks. Smaller being 90, 55, 30 hospital, and a 15 nano right now.

 

[ophiura]

I would certainly say that if the DT specific gravity was 1.018 you had major die off in the sand as that is highly stressful and fatal to most "oceanic" invertebrates.
However it takes these animals a year or so to starve so that was not likely an issue overall. But just because you see life in the sand, does not mean that it is suitable for the star. They may be more specific grazers, or may not be able to reach within a few inches of the glass.
as for age - it is debated as to whether seastars ever die of "old age" so IMO it was tank related (having said that - most are not exposed to predators as they would find in the wild). Most sand sifter stars in this hobby do not live more than a year to 18 months because they take about that long to starve after depleting a sand bed. So you can hand it from one system maybe at about a year, have it feast a few months...then start dying again for another year...then move to someplace it can feast a few months, etc. So it can actually be doing well, or just "by all appearances" be doing well when it is not.

 

[valgae]

I believe that ich cannot survive w/o fish. you could have left ur corals and inverts in the tank and ghost fed ur DT. leave ur tank barren for about 6 weeks. mean while keep ur fish in a QT tank. thats what i did in mine. i havent had any probs. since.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by VALgae
http:///forum/post/2613725
I believe that ich cannot survive w/o fish. you could have left ur corals and inverts in the tank and ghost fed ur DT. leave ur tank barren for about 6 weeks. mean while keep ur fish in a QT tank. thats what i did in mine. i havent had any probs. since.
You are right cant disagree one bit, I was going to do that but I was having a hard time trying to catch the fish to move them (the tanks is a 220) and because of them having ich they were stressed enough I didnt want to change the tank on them for fear of losing a fish and as it was I loss three Mono Sabees in the move due to the ich and moving.. I think thats how you spell it they look like a FW angel fish silver W/black stripe .. it was easier to move the corals,live rock and inverts that would not live in the lower salt level.. Then I was having such a problem with getting the salt at a lower (correct) level in such a large tank I just said to heck with it and moved the fish and put the DT back together. if this happened in my 90 it would of been different. Right now I am so upset from loss that star that I have had for so long.
I would like to thank everyone for there input in this matter and again I have learned a lesson the hard way.
I still have one question concerning this.. If the sand star cant find enough food in the substrate that we all have in our tanks What do we feed them so they dont starve? I would like to think that I didnt starve him but I guess its possible from what I have been reading. You have to remember when you respond to this that the sand that I have is not dry sand from a bag that has been in a tank for six months. I would be guessing on its age but its been in my tanks for five plus years and some places in the tank is five inches deep others its less due to the current flow. Some of it has come from a research facility that I cant name or dont think I can name it here due to the fact that they sell items on the net..
comments anyone I'm open to all advise, but remember to be kind and dont stab me to hard I'm allready hurting from my loss.

.. Brian

 

[timbodmb]

HEY HEY HEY!!!! Don't put him to sleep!!!
I had this happen to my SSS, one of his legs was slowly disappearing. My lfs said that he was starving. She suggested I took pellet food and stick it under the sand... trying to "spot" feed it. My star typically goes to a couple different spots in my tank, so that's where i buried the pellets about 1 cm under the sand. His leg grew back...
Why is everyone so infatuated with the freezer???! Give it a try for a week... his arm grew back in about 2.5 weeks.

 

[ophiura]

In general, they do not take to spot feeding and so there is little that could be done to keep them eating other than passing them from tank to tank in the hopes it would find enough in each to sustain it a few months.
Often they are OK in larger tanks over 150- though it is critical to have large expanses of open sand. Most success stories beyond 18 months have this scenario. In all likelihood it finds enough in one area that allows another area of the sand to "regenerate" the ecosystem that feeds it. If a sand star starts moving all over the place in the tank, climbing rocks and glass, it is probably making a ditch effort to try and encounter a new feeding area.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2613533
I would certainly say that if the DT specific gravity was 1.018 you had major die off in the sand as that is highly stressful and fatal to most "oceanic" invertebrates. to answer these specific sand star was moved to another tank along with other inverts as not to subject them to lower salt levels
However it takes these animals a year or so to starve so that was not likely an issue overall. But just because you see life in the sand, does not mean that it is suitable for the star. They may be more specific grazers, or may not be able to reach within a few inches of the glass. Agree to this, I guess is what has happened along with the die-off due to lower specific gravity
as for age - it is debated as to whether seastars ever die of "old age" so IMO it was tank related (having said that - most are not exposed to predators as they would find in the wild). Most sand sifter stars in this hobby do not live more than a year to 18 months because they take about that long to starve after depleting a sand bed. So you can hand it from one system maybe at about a year, have it feast a few months...then start dying again for another year...then move to someplace it can feast a few months, etc. So it can actually be doing well, or just "by all appearances" be doing well when it is not.
I dont know I'm still puzzled as to the whole thing you might be correct in that I could of had a major die off in the sand bed but if that was the case it should of been notice on a water test I would think.. anyway if they average a year to year and a half I almost trippled that... what would we feed these guys if they eat everything from the sand that they can. and why do we keep them if they are going to die this horrible death. knowing what I do now I dont think I will ever own another, Its a terrible way to die and being someone who is responsible for the health of a creature and starving it to death makes me feel even worse..Has anyone else out there had a sand star start to rot? is this what happends to them at the end of there life cycle?

 

[ophiura]

The lower specific gravity WOULD kill off its food source when you moved it back and you may not have seen any sign of that in water tests overall. Also, if you didn't acclimate it back to that tank, it could also have caused shock. This is not a starvation due to the lower specific gravity - starvation takes many many months. It is either osmotic due to acclimation or water quality or long term starvation over the past year.
Yes, most do die in this disintegration fashion but it is HIGHLY unlikely it is due simply to old age. MOST in this hobby will die in this exact same way, of osmotic shock (within a month after introduction, reintroduction, or major tank issue) or starvation (12-18 months).
I never, ever, no way, no how recommend these stars in any system as most WILL die in our tanks. We are unable to provide for them.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2613969
In general, they do not take to spot feeding and so there is little that could be done to keep them eating other than passing them from tank to tank in the hopes it would find enough in each to sustain it a few months.
Often they are OK in larger tanks over 150- though it is critical to have large expanses of open sand. Most success stories beyond 18 months have this scenario. In all likelihood it finds enough in one area that allows another area of the sand to "regenerate" the ecosystem that feeds it. If a sand star starts moving all over the place in the tank, climbing rocks and glass, it is probably making a ditch effort to try and encounter a new feeding area.
Agree I thought he was so cool to watch because most of the time he would move under the sand to another feeding location and that was so cool to see
I was just having a problem with the rotting part of the whole thing. I was thinking that I had something horrible going on in my tank that I couldnt test for. I didnt know that starving him would cause this

 

[horsin1963]

Susan thank you so much for your advise I am so glad there are people like you out here to help us.. I have been doing salt for many many years. I learn every day. this has been a hard lesson I feel so bad for that poor creature I know I will never do that again THANK YOU AGAIN ... Brian

 

[timbodmb]

I wasn't saying spot feeding... I purposely put food into the substrate knowing it would eventually find it... not a lot as to upset your trate levels, but I had success in this regard.

 

[aquaknight]

Well the lower specific gravity was low enough to kill life in the sand, it isn't low enough to kill the nitrifying bacteria in the rocks/sand that likely went into a hibernation with the lower SG (if it only went to 1.018, I doubt it even went into hib.). And it in turn absorbed all the die off, causing it not to show up on your readings. Maybe?

 

[nuro]

Originally Posted by timbodmb
http:///forum/post/2613998
I wasn't saying spot feeding... I purposely put food into the substrate knowing it would eventually find it... not a lot as to upset your trate levels, but I had success in this regard.
+1
I have a sandsifter that will also take food ive placed in the sand. I bought it and it had already lost a limb that is now growing back. I'm not advocating the purchase of these just stating that maybe this might work and you could save it.

 

[ophiura]

Are you sure you have Archaster? If it is Astropecten it would absolutely take to spot feeding (and is a voracious predator). Do you have a picture?
Is this food you've placed on the sand or in the sand...and if in the sand how do you know the star has eaten it? Possibly it would eat things that might eat the food...which may run out over time. I'm just definitely interested in knowing more about how this has been done, because most do not take to other types of spot feeding or scavenging.