Sand sifting star on its last (rotting) leg

[nuro]

i'll see if i cant get a pic next time hes out and about. basically i feed my arrow crab frozen mussles and i was curious after reading on here that it may be possible to feed the sand sifter by placing food in the sand. I tak a small amount of the mussel and place it in the sandnext to/just under an arm making sure its tucked under the sand and arm enough to t wont float away but not deeper then he is currently burried himself. I have a small rock i use to mark the spot next to his furthest arm, this way i can tell if hes moved. more often then not ill check the next day(i always do this before turning out the lights) and he will have moved about far enought away from the rock to get to the food. I have about a 4" sand bed, and the tank has only been up since feb. Now it is entirely possible that stuff in the sand bed is moving to eat the mussel and then he eats them.. how can i test this out?
From what ive read they wotn regenerate limbs if they are starving, it was an impulse buy, but i doubt it'd be regenerating if he was starving an i doubt with such a young tank he'd have enough food to survive let alone regrow limbs. I'm curious as to the long term impact it has i guess we'll see. If you want more info let me know.

 

[timbodmb]

That's exactly it. The food under the substrate causes nitrifying bacteria to gather, which I think is essentially what the star fish is eating. Either way, I had success with this method, and it's arm is fully regrown. I'm now a bit more conciencious, as I check his limbs every time I see him. He's really a cool starfish.

 

[nuro]

Originally Posted by timbodmb
http:///forum/post/2614345
That's exactly it. The food under the substrate causes nitrifying bacteria to gather, which I think is essentially what the star fish is eating. Either way, I had success with this method, and it's arm is fully regrown. I'm now a bit more conciencious, as I check his limbs every time I see him. He's really a cool starfish.
is this a viable way of feeding the starfish w/out depleting the substrate?

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by nuro
http:///forum/post/2614303
i'll see if i cant get a pic next time hes out and about. basically i feed my arrow crab frozen mussles and i was curious after reading on here that it may be possible to feed the sand sifter by placing food in the sand. I tak a small amount of the mussel and place it in the sandnext to/just under an arm making sure its tucked under the sand and arm enough to t wont float away but not deeper then he is currently burried himself. I have a small rock i use to mark the spot next to his furthest arm, this way i can tell if hes moved. more often then not ill check the next day(i always do this before turning out the lights) and he will have moved about far enought away from the rock to get to the food. I have about a 4" sand bed, and the tank has only been up since feb. Now it is entirely possible that stuff in the sand bed is moving to eat the mussel and then he eats them.. how can i test this out?
From what ive read they wotn regenerate limbs if they are starving, it was an impulse buy, but i doubt it'd be regenerating if he was starving an i doubt with such a young tank he'd have enough food to survive let alone regrow limbs. I'm curious as to the long term impact it has i guess we'll see. If you want more info let me know.
They can do fine for several months, so you won't really know for sure if it is doing well until you've had it 18 months. I know it is hard to believe but truly they take that long to show problems...not a couple of months. For one thing, they will digest all their internal organs for the most part, which will tie them over for quite awhile.
They may eat well - until they eat everything, and then it will still take many many months for problems to arise. So I would not, unfortunately, consider it a success yet.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by timbodmb
http:///forum/post/2614345
That's exactly it. The food under the substrate causes nitrifying bacteria to gather, which I think is essentially what the star fish is eating. Either way, I had success with this method, and it's arm is fully regrown. I'm now a bit more conciencious, as I check his limbs every time I see him. He's really a cool starfish.
How long have you had it? How large is the tank?

 

[nuro]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2614751
They can do fine for several months, so you won't really know for sure if it is doing well until you've had it 18 months. I know it is hard to believe but truly they take that long to show problems...not a couple of months. For one thing, they will digest all their internal organs for the most part, which will tie them over for quite awhile.
They may eat well - until they eat everything, and then it will still take many many months for problems to arise. So I would not, unfortunately, consider it a success yet.
Would the limb be regrowing tho? im not in anyway doubtign your expertise, just curious if a limb would start to regrow even if ti was starving.

 

[ophiura]

Yes, because in the short term it may not be starving. It may be using stored reserves or finding enough to eat for now.
Starvation is a chronic condition that sets in after many many months without enough food.

 

[horsin1963]

This is a quote from another site that I had looked up on feeding the sand star.. I would like to disclose where it is but cant do to this sites rules. just search for sand star diet you sould find it if you want
"This peaceful omnivore will effectively clean even the largest home aquarium of detritus and left over food. Like other starfish, the Sand Sifting Sea Star will also consume small invertebrates, including shrimp, urchins, mollusks, bivalves, or other small sea stars. As such, the Sand Sifting Sea Star should be actively fed a varied diet consisting of natural food sources, especially in well-established marine aquariums. Otherwise, this voracious feeder will quickly clean your aquarium of detritus and then burrow into your substrate, starve, and eventually begin to decay."
Now my next question is why cant we spot feed them?

 

[nuro]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2615096
Yes, because in the short term it may not be starving. It may be using stored reserves or finding enough to eat for now.
Starvation is a chronic condition that sets in after many many months without enough food.
I was going with the assumption that it was starving at the LFS and the regrowing limb was a positive sign that my feeding was working. I stand corrected.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Horsin1963
http:///forum/post/2615152
This is a quote from another site that I had looked up on feeding the sand star.. I would like to disclose where it is but cant do to this sites rules. just search for sand star diet you sould find it if you want
"This peaceful omnivore will effectively clean even the largest home aquarium of detritus and left over food. Like other starfish, the Sand Sifting Sea Star will also consume small invertebrates, including shrimp, urchins, mollusks, bivalves, or other small sea stars. As such, the Sand Sifting Sea Star should be actively fed a varied diet consisting of natural food sources, especially in well-established marine aquariums. Otherwise, this voracious feeder will quickly clean your aquarium of detritus and then burrow into your substrate, starve, and eventually begin to decay."
Now my next question is why cant we spot feed them?
That information is confusing...from "peaceful omnivore" to "voracious feeder" on just about anything - well it is correct for Astropecten, but not for Archaster.
Again, these animals do not typically survive in our tanks over 18 months, and if this info were generally true they would be easily kept through scavenging and frankly active predation on other stuff. On the one hand they say they will eat detritus and scavenge...on the other "provide natural food sources" (which is healthy live sand). Talk about covering every base, even if wrong.
They can not as a general rule be spot fed. INDIVIDUALS may take to spot feeding, but let me put it this way...if they would spot feed, they would spot feed. Nothing "special" would be required. They would simply be fed like chocolate chip stars or similar, yet they don't take to it. So I would TRY to see if they will go for something (Astropecten WILL eat...everything) but otherwise the only hope is a very large mature sand bed.

Absolutely, try to spot feed them...but the ANIMAL may not care what the websites say. Most people have very little knowledge about the wild behavior and ecology of seastars.

 

[renogaw]

BTW, its been mentioned a few times that hte sand has been moved etc.
the problem with moving sand is most of the microfauna live in the top 1/4" of the sand. when you consolidate sand, there is no way for you to prevent that microfauna from being buried under the sand, killing it. so basically, you cannot count on it to feed anything.

 

[horsin1963]

Sorry for no responce but I got kicked out for some reason and didnt remember my passsword so I had a heck of a time trying to get a new one..
All day long I have done nothing but research this topic, everything that I have read state that you can suppliment the feedings of the sand star. Some sites say what to use others dont. They all will talk about it dieing if it cant find food. Here is a write up from a site that I found. I think we should cover this topic in depth seeings how SWF.COM sells them and doesnt have care instructions sheet for them. Does anyone second that? I can quote sites that I have found some of this info at but cant due to SWF rules. I can also produce more info on the Sand star if it might help.. I wished I would of done this type of research a long time ago..
Sand Sifting Sea Star - Astropecten polycanthus - Sand Sifting Starfish
Sand Sifting Sea Star - Astropecten polycanthus
Taxonomy:
Sand Sifting Sea Star belongs to the Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Echinodermata, Class Asteroideas, Family Astropectinidae, Genus Astropecten and Species polycanthus.
Scientific names: The scientific name of Sand Sifting Sea Star is Astropecten polycanthus.
Other common names: Sand Sifting Sea Star is also commonly known as Sand Sifting Starfish.
Origin or natural range: Astropecten polycanthus originates in the Eastern Pacific Ocean including Fiji and Tonga.
Size: Sand Sifting Sea Star may grow up to a size of around twelve inches.
Color: Astropecten polycanthus occurs in Cream, White, Tan and Brown colors.
Aggression: Sand Sifting Sea Star is non-aggressive towards the marine aquarium invertebrates.
Compatibility: Astropecten polycanthus is reef compatible.
Venom status: Sand Sifting Sea Star is non-poisonous in nature.
Habit & Habitat: Astropecten polycanthus burrows itself in sand when disturbed or when stressed and when it needs to digest its food.
Morphology: Sand Sifting Sea Star has teeth or spine like structures in lateral arrangement, running along the outer edges of its five arms. The spines help Astropecten polycanthus to perform its sand related activities such as, locomotion, burrowing and searching for its food.
Growth enabling environment in your marine aquarium:
Aquarium habit & habitat:
# Tank type: To host Sand Sifting Sea Star, you should have a well established Fish Only Marine Aquarium or a Reef Type Marine Aquarium with a water capacity of minimum eighty gallons.
# Aquarium set-up:
# Keep a five inches thick layer of sand in your marine aquarium.
# Place ample sand inhabiting live marine invertebrates in your tank as food for Astropecten polycanthus.
# Temperature of water: Seventy-two to seventy-eight degrees Fahrenheit.
# Specific gravity of water: 1.023 to 1.025.
# pH of water: 8.10 to 8.40.
# Acclimation: Use the Slow Drip Acclimation Method to slowly acclimate Sand Sifting Sea Star to your marine aquarium s environment. The slow acclimation process requires a minimum time period of two hours.
# Aquarium activity:
# Astropecten polycanthus can exhaust the food resources of its marine tank within a few weeks time from its introduction.
# Once Sand Sifting Sea Star is through with all the food in its marine aquarium, it takes refuge under sand and dies of starvation.
# Feeding & Nutrition:
# Diet: Astropecten polycanthus is Carnivorous in feeding habit.
# Food content: Sand Sifting Sea Star eats detritus along with mainly consuming crustaceans found on the sandy bottom of the marine water bodies, such as, Amphipods, Spaghetti Worms, Copepods, and Tube Worms to name some.
# Supplements: You may supplement the diet of Sand Sifting Sea Star with the meaty bits of fish, sea urchins, shrimp, bivalves and other small sized starfish.
Breeding: Astropecten polycanthus generally does not breed in captivity.
Benefits:
# Sand Sifting Sea Star ploughs the sand while searching for food in it. The search process aerates the sand well.
# Astropecten polycanthus eats detritus and therefore prevents your marine aquarium s water from getting contaminated by the perishable organic waste matter.
Care:
# Astropecten polycanthus is difficult to maintain.
# Sudden fluctuations in the pH and the temperature of your marine aquarium s environment may give pH shock and temperature shock, respectively, to the Sand Sifting Sea Star therein.
# Nitrates and Copper in any form in your marine tank may prove lethal for the Astropecten polycanthus in it.
# Do not keep Puffers and Sand Sifting Sea Star in the same marine aquarium.
# Do not expose Astropecten polycanthus to air as the sea star cannot tolerate the sudden fluctuations in the oxygen levels. Therefore, keep Sand Sifting Sea Star under water even while handling it.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2615416
BTW, its been mentioned a few times that hte sand has been moved etc.
the problem with moving sand is most of the microfauna live in the top 1/4" of the sand. when you consolidate sand, there is no way for you to prevent that microfauna from being buried under the sand, killing it. so basically, you cannot count on it to feed anything.
MORE RESEARCH SHOULD BE DONE CONCERNING THIS TOPIC AND POSTED IF WE ARE GOING TO KEEP KILLING THESE CREATURES DO TO LACK OF FOOD
yes I have had this sand for a long time. and it has been in a couple of tanks. there shouldnt be a problem here.. if the sand stars only fed into the top 1/4 inch why does all the research state to have a deep sand bed? Why does the Sand Star go deeper the 1/4 of a inch searching for food? microfauna isnt the only thing the sand star eats. With a good system and a good sand base (that I have I might add) your sand should be moving. I know mine does. I have to change the current flow on the powerheads all the time, if I dont it will pile up the sand and I dont want that to happen. If my sand didnt have nutrients in it I would not have the growth in it that I have.
I will say that I know the reason now that it happened or what I think happened. SHOCK pure and simple. possibly happened when he was move from one tank to another. Although I run all my tanks at the same chemicle levels. I didnt drip it back to the DT, didnt think I had to. I exposed him to air didnt know I shouldnt. combo of the two shocked him... I cant believe that I dont have enough food in the sand for it to live...

 

[ophiura]

Unfortunately...many of these sites do not know a darn thing about it.
I have sent a picture of the common sand sifter star to a seastar expert - yes, someone employed studying seastars - and he says it is Archaster, not Astropecten. In this case it is not a minor taxonomic distinction - Astropecten is often quite voracious and Archaster is not. They look similar but are not closely related.
Many people repeat wrong, misleading, bad, info...or just don't know. Few people study these things. They require a very large sand bed and are probably fairly specific in what they consume meaning they can eat it all...and sand beds often lose diversity over time. This is especially true if you've moved it. If you have not regularly added cups of new sand from fellow hobbyists, odds are the sand has lost diversity over time.
If these stars ate detritus and if they could be spot fed they would not die so regularly. In fact, small dirty tanks would be ideal, and yet are not. The information provided is totally contradictory. It will starve - but you can spot feed it - but it will likely still starve. That makes no sense at all.
Exposure to air IS NOT fatal to a healthy star. That is another myth perpetuated in this hobby.
In the end, you can believe what you would like to believe in this case. But please understand that like Linckia, which also tend to die at 12-18 months in our tank...all is not what it appears to be. You think there is plenty of food in the tank. Cows in a field think there is plenty of food to eat....but you would quite possibly starve in that same field because you are not designed to live on grass. Not everything is food for that animal. That reality is that a very large majority of these stars will die in less than two years...success is correlated with the amount of open area of mature sand bed. In small tanks survival is poor, in large it gets proportionally better (as it does with Linckia and amount of LR).

 

[horsin1963]

Susan, You make some very good points. I hope that I am not sounding like I am trying to justify something that I have done wrong, was not what I was looking for. What I am looking for is the fact that we all have to have these poor creatures in our tanks. for some reason its not a saltwater tank untill you have a starfish of some type in it. Why do we do it if we cant provide for them? Yes I know that there is certain types that can be fed and kept without any harm at all coming to it. But I can only believe what I read, true or not I dont know I wasnt the one that has done the research. The other thing that bothered me with all the reading that I done was that the Sand Star will not reproduce in captivity, so think about the fact we take from the ocean to put it in our tanks to kill it??? Many of these sites may not be doing any research at all and are only going by what someone else has written. What I am now looking for is the truth, can these creatures be kept without harming them if so what does it take to do it. having this site sell them or any other site for all that matters selling them and giving out false info on them is wrong period. this site should if they are going to keep selling the sand star post correct care for it. I guess posting nothing is better than posting incorrect info. But from what I have read at other places I should of not had a death from starvation. this tank being a 220 with a average of 4 inches of sand a 40 gal sump with at least 3 inches of sand and alot of plant life. I have a good 175 lbs of live rock and 40 lbs of base rock. all kind of corals with very a good cleanup crew and a few fish.. I also have one of the largest brittle stars that I have seen, and she just gave birth I have a couple hundred tiny brittles all over.. My lighting is all custom built, I have 800 watts of MH a 6' 96 watt hamilton PC, 4 each 5 foot t-12s run by a icecap 660 ballast. I have mroe if needed but for what I am doing its fine.. this tank has been running for 7 months and like I said B4 this tank was a upgrade it was from combining a 125 and a 90 which I might add the 90is still running the 125 was sold. I am new to reef systems but not to saltwater in general.
WHAT CAN WE DO TO KEEP THE SAND STAR ALIVE MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF?
Can anyone answer that and give site material that they get the answers from please? I had never dreamed that this topic would get this far

 

[nuro]

Originally Posted by Horsin1963
http:///forum/post/2616278
Susan, You make some very good points. I hope that I am not sounding like I am trying to justify something that I have done wrong, was not what I was looking for. What I am looking for is the fact that we all have to have these poor creatures in our tanks. for some reason its not a saltwater tank untill you have a starfish of some type in it. Why do we do it if we cant provide for them? Yes I know that there is certain types that can be fed and kept without any harm at all coming to it. But I can only believe what I read, true or not I dont know I wasnt the one that has done the research. The other thing that bothered me with all the reading that I done was that the Sand Star will not reproduce in captivity, so think about the fact we take from the ocean to put it in our tanks to kill it??? Many of these sites may not be doing any research at all and are only going by what someone else has written. What I am now looking for is the truth, can these creatures be kept without harming them if so what does it take to do it. having this site sell them or any other site for all that matters selling them and giving out false info on them is wrong period. this site should if they are going to keep selling the sand star post correct care for it. I guess posting nothing is better than posting incorrect info. But from what I have read at other places I should of not had a death from starvation. this tank being a 220 with a average of 4 inches of sand a 40 gal sump with at least 3 inches of sand and alot of plant life. I have a good 175 lbs of live rock and 40 lbs of base rock. all kind of corals with very a good cleanup crew and a few fish.. I also have one of the largest brittle stars that I have seen, and she just gave birth I have a couple hundred tiny brittles all over.. My lighting is all custom built, I have 800 watts of MH a 6' 96 watt hamilton PC, 4 each 5 foot t-12s run by a icecap 660 ballast. I have mroe if needed but for what I am doing its fine.. this tank has been running for 7 months and like I said B4 this tank was a upgrade it was from combining a 125 and a 90 which I might add the 90is still running the 125 was sold. I am new to reef systems but not to saltwater in general.
WHAT CAN WE DO TO KEEP THE SAND STAR ALIVE MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF?
Can anyone answer that and give site material that they get the answers from please? I had never dreamed that this topic would get this far
I think the point is, we don't know. What is known is that the larger the tank, the better your chances are. what Ophiura has stated makes sense, two closely related but diffwerent animals with different eatign habits have confused this debate. We can trial and error thisall we want(and it may keep killing stars) but until someone has a concretely stated way of keeping the stars alive in a small habitat it may be best if we all continue avoiding them and recommending the same to others. I regret buying mine, but having said that I'm goign to do what i can to keep it alive.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by nuro
http:///forum/post/2616317
I think the point is, we don't know. What is known is that the larger the tank, the better your chances are. what Ophiura has stated makes sense, two closely related but diffwerent animals with different eatign habits have confused this debate. We can trial and error thisall we want(and it may keep killing stars) but until someone has a concretely stated way of keeping the stars alive in a small habitat it may be best if we all continue avoiding them and recommending the same to others. I regret buying mine, but having said that I'm goign to do what i can to keep it alive.
God bless you, I wished I had the info on these creatures I love them and think they are the coolest thing ever for a fish tank. I wished there were more people out there like Ophiura,

she has been so helpfull in this and has given some very good and sound advise. for me it was a little to late.

If I would of have known earlier My little guy might still be with me I would of made shure that I had what it takes to provide for it. right now all I would like to do is make everyone aware of the fact that just because he looks healthy that might not be the case. I hope everyone that has one reads this and makes the adjustments that are needed to provide for them. I thought I had what it takes but I didnt. All I can say right now is read, read and when your done read some more. I have learned alot about the sand star in a few days. GOOD LUCK... Brian

 

[nuro]

someone should totally move this to the 'what not to do section' . might be helpful.

 

[renogaw]

i also started out with a star, luckily it was a red serpent, and loves to be spot fed, or even takes food out of my sun corals. it is unfortunate that sand sifters are sold, mainly to those who don't do the research first
as for the sand blowing around, it generally is slow enough that the fauna will not get buried, but if you put more than a 1/4 inch ontop of your existing sand, you stand a good chance of killing the fauna.

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by nuro
http:///forum/post/2616467
someone should totally move this to the 'what not to do section' . might be helpful.
I would agree with this statement, it should be a topic that everyone should read if they are going to own a sand sifting starfish. I am shure it would help someone else that might be going though the same problem. I wished I would of known six months ago what I know now.