sand verus coral
- Thread starter johnp906
- Start date
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thomas712
Guest
Most of us will not use crushed coral because it is a large substrate that traps the fish waste and uneaten food that has to be vacuumed before it creates nitrates, which it will anyway. Crushed coral does not provide a very good biological zone, and many tanks are setup with CC from the get go through lack of knowledge or because it is the only substrate that an LFS sells and tells you that it is all you need, using a selling point of CC has buffering power. I have personally battled nitrates over 100 ppm during my days of CC and UGF doing frequent large water changes. So many of us have been there and had high nitrates, did a water change to lower them and they were back in a couple of days. CC has sharp edges, which is undesirable for inverts, like anemones walking around, pods or worms. No getting around it CC is high maintenance and can lead to poor water quality, frequent maintenance, sick livestock, algae blooms and more.
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
As to the mixing of live sand and crushed coral. Doing so would be a mistake. First off the CC would rise to the top and the sand would push to the bottom, eventually all you would see is the crushed coral on top. This CC would then still trap detritus and need to be vacuumed, and you would just be sucking up some sand with it every time you did it. The sand bed under the CC might not function correctly or build up anoxic regions and if you broke into those areas with your syphon you could have a crash of the tank. The water flow would not reach the sand correctly sending it the nutrients it needed to process it. Instead the nutrients would fall on top of it through the crushed coral where it would stagnate until you vacuumed it.
The idea with sand and good water flow is that larger particles of detritus would stay in the water column where the mechanical filtration would remove it, and the dissolved particles would flow into the sand bed where the infauna can process it into smaller pieces and the sand bed can process it into a harmless gas that escapes the tank.
Thomas
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
As to the mixing of live sand and crushed coral. Doing so would be a mistake. First off the CC would rise to the top and the sand would push to the bottom, eventually all you would see is the crushed coral on top. This CC would then still trap detritus and need to be vacuumed, and you would just be sucking up some sand with it every time you did it. The sand bed under the CC might not function correctly or build up anoxic regions and if you broke into those areas with your syphon you could have a crash of the tank. The water flow would not reach the sand correctly sending it the nutrients it needed to process it. Instead the nutrients would fall on top of it through the crushed coral where it would stagnate until you vacuumed it.
The idea with sand and good water flow is that larger particles of detritus would stay in the water column where the mechanical filtration would remove it, and the dissolved particles would flow into the sand bed where the infauna can process it into smaller pieces and the sand bed can process it into a harmless gas that escapes the tank.
Thomas
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thomas712
Guest
If the tank is still new and cycling there's no reason why you couldn't sift the crushed coral out.
agent707
Member
Sounds like I'll be sifting the coral out of my tank... I just set it up about 3 weeks ago. I do have 2 dansels, but they can live in a 15 gallon cooler while I do the required maintenace.
I've already wasted $70 on Rocks/Crushed Coral...
At $30 per 20 lbs. for LS, this is getting to be a pain in the bank account.
I've already wasted $70 on Rocks/Crushed Coral...
At $30 per 20 lbs. for LS, this is getting to be a pain in the bank account.
turningtim
Active Member
If you already have LS just get some reg sand. The LS will seed the new sand and will be much cheaper. I completely agree with what your doing. It maybe a pain now but you will be happier down the road and will most likely save you some issues.
Thomas I must thank you for such a complete and concise reasons for using sand over CC. This subject has been beaten to death and I had yet to see such a great responce.
HTH
Tim
Thomas I must thank you for such a complete and concise reasons for using sand over CC. This subject has been beaten to death and I had yet to see such a great responce.
HTH
Tim
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thomas712
Guest
Turning Tim.. Your welcome
I think I wrote that 2 or 3 years ago now. Its just a part of my article about that was origanally about switching substrates from crushed coral to sand, but hey that part works in many areas.
I should think people would get tired of my just posting it all the time.
Thomas
I should think people would get tired of my just posting it all the time.
Thomas
turningtim
Active Member
Thomas, I must admit I copied the post to my "great fish articles archive file"
on my hard drive. So maybe I'll catch it before you do next time........
You don't have a copyright or anything do you? I don't want to get in trouble with the sharks.......... :scared:
Thanks again
Tim
You don't have a copyright or anything do you? I don't want to get in trouble with the sharks.......... :scared:
Thanks again
Tim
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thomas712
Guest
no copywrite, free to fishy friends.
agent707
Member
Originally Posted by Thomas712
I should think people would get tired of my just posting it all the time.
What people really get tired of is new comers who pop in and ask the question that gets asked every other day.... WITHOUT FIRST DOING A SEARCH.
People would be amazed at what they could find by just searching.
Now, ON TOPIC. I'm glad the old sand mixed with the New sand was brought up.
Here is my situation. I just set my tank up. I have 45 lbs of CC and 40 lbs of LS. I also have out in my garage... a 5 gallon bucket of pure white sand I brought back from a vacation to Destin Florida 18 months ago. It's perfectly clean sand in a clean bucket. I'm GOING TO USE IT IN MY TANK!
My question is, once I sift all the CC out of my tank... will I have enough LS left to mix in with the dead sand? Or do you recommend me dumping 1 more 20 lb bag of LS on top after I clean the CC out and dump the Dead Sand in?
It may look funny too... LS is kinda brown... the sand I have is almost like Sugar (If you have ever been to Destin or seen pictures, you'd know what I mean).
I should think people would get tired of my just posting it all the time.
What people really get tired of is new comers who pop in and ask the question that gets asked every other day.... WITHOUT FIRST DOING A SEARCH.
People would be amazed at what they could find by just searching.
Now, ON TOPIC. I'm glad the old sand mixed with the New sand was brought up.
Here is my situation. I just set my tank up. I have 45 lbs of CC and 40 lbs of LS. I also have out in my garage... a 5 gallon bucket of pure white sand I brought back from a vacation to Destin Florida 18 months ago. It's perfectly clean sand in a clean bucket. I'm GOING TO USE IT IN MY TANK!
My question is, once I sift all the CC out of my tank... will I have enough LS left to mix in with the dead sand? Or do you recommend me dumping 1 more 20 lb bag of LS on top after I clean the CC out and dump the Dead Sand in?
It may look funny too... LS is kinda brown... the sand I have is almost like Sugar (If you have ever been to Destin or seen pictures, you'd know what I mean).
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thomas712
Guest
I'd say that 5 gallon bucket of dry? sand should be about 40 lbs or so, that should even things out for ya. My suggestion would be to also move your old darker sand back a few inches so that much of the white sand can be forward in the tank, if they start mixing you might say yuck everytime you look at it.
Thomas
Thomas
wisconsinc
New Member
Great thread!
I have an established fish only tank with a very thin layer of CC. What kind of impact would it have it I removed the CC and put in rinsed sand? I'm assuming the CC provides some biological filtration. Would removing it cause a cycle or other problems?
Thanks!
I have an established fish only tank with a very thin layer of CC. What kind of impact would it have it I removed the CC and put in rinsed sand? I'm assuming the CC provides some biological filtration. Would removing it cause a cycle or other problems?
Thanks!
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thomas712
Guest
I don't think removing a thin layer of CC would cause a major concern, however it will carry some bacteria with it. So if you remove it just remove half one week and half another week just so you don't stress the system to bad.
From there you can repalce with sand, live sand immediatly or dry sand that you cure yourself by using old tank water.
Or...If it works for you and isn't broke then it doesn't need fixing does it?
Don't just use any sand, is should be calcium carbonate based.
Thomas
From there you can repalce with sand, live sand immediatly or dry sand that you cure yourself by using old tank water.
Or...If it works for you and isn't broke then it doesn't need fixing does it?
Don't just use any sand, is should be calcium carbonate based.
Thomas
wisconsinc
New Member
Removing half at a time is a great idea. Thanks.
It's not "broke" but your first post of this thred opened my eyes a bit. When I vacuum the cc it's pretty gunky. I don't mind taking a step back to take two forward. My goal is to slowly make improvements and start toward some coral and other inverts.
It's not "broke" but your first post of this thred opened my eyes a bit. When I vacuum the cc it's pretty gunky. I don't mind taking a step back to take two forward. My goal is to slowly make improvements and start toward some coral and other inverts.
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thomas712
Guest
Well then if your removing a bunch of gunk then its more than a thin layer, or your not vacuuming it enough. Yeah I'd remove it. You can see how much gets trapped in there without proper mainanence and water movment. Thus folks with crushed coral usually wind up with high nitrates.
Rip it out and Git R Done.
Thomas
Rip it out and Git R Done.
Thomas
4
40 galons
Guest
i think the statement above made by thomas needs a good bumping , i see so many times, people asking about cc , to change or not to change? this pretty much clears it up and i think erveryone should see it on the front page on a regular basis..
