sat, sun reports

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
For newbies I have been reporting levels in two tanks. One is a 20g with powerhead, play sand used to culture macro algaes. The other is my 55g display with 5 damsels, a yellow tang, 2 crabs, 10 hermits, 4 turbo snales, bahama and green brittle stars, banded coral shrimp. It has base rock, 3" play sand with CC on top, bunch of macro algaes, tetra tech pf 500 with empty filter pads.
20g sat (sun)
ammonia 0.0 (0.0)
nitrites 0.0 (0.0)
nitrAtes 0.0 (0.0)
ph 8.4 (8.4)
55g sat (sun)
ammonia 0.0 (.2)
nitrites 0.0 0.0
nitrAtes (old test kit)
160
nitrates (new test kit)
40.0 (40.0)
ph 8.4 (8.4)
55g observation: Banded Coral shrimp sucessfully molted friday night/sat morn.
I ran out of my nitrate test kit and discovered my old kit was way too sensitive. At the lower levels it did read 0.0 but with any nitrates at all it pegged the test. I took a covered glass of tank water to the LFS sunday and both the new kit and their other brand different test tested at 20 ppm for the display tank. That is reasonable because the tank water had been sealed for an hour or so and therefore anaerobic bacteria may have lower the nitrate level (from the later measured 40ppm).
During the time last week I had been measureing 160ppm all the livestock seemed fine and active. Additionally, the algae boom after i increased lighting seemed to continue to lesson. Algae in the glass was much less and the rocks were slowly returning to the non algae colors.
The 20g still has cloudness but the macros are growing vigorously. And all the tests have returned to 0.0
No water changes were done on either tank. Only replacing water the evaporates (1 gal both tanks yesterday).
Draw you own conculstions, but one thing to consider is why were nitrates (even with the bad kit) dropping while there still were nitrItes in the system? The answer is obvious and there were no bubles comming from the sand. This is what I have noticed before on this tank (after initial setup) so it is not a fluke. (And I think I know why. :D )
My main conclusion is to not rely soley on test kits. Use your eyes and nose also. Don't get me wrong. If you see a bump up in nitrItes, stop feeding and then they go down, you did the right thing even if no distress is noticed in the fish or cloudiness in the tank. But if you see algae disappearing and active healthy livestock, but nitrAtes pegged, then look at the test kit. And if you see cloudiness and foul odors, take action even if tests are ok.
Ok OK guys. this will be the last report. Seems everything was ok after all.
 

dreeves

Active Member
The bacteria associated with nitrate consuption live in O2 free environements. I do not see how they would even survive in a container to be able to consume any nitrates...
Also, what test kits do you use? Old and new.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by dreeves
The bacteria associated with nitrate consuption live in O2 free environements. I do not see how they would even survive in a container to be able to consume any nitrates...
Also, what test kits do you use? Old and new.

The tests kits were my new kit plus the one at the LFS. At the LFS two different tests tested 20ppm later at home I tested 40ppm. Could have been a difference in the samples and at different time of days. It was just my speculation that the covered glass for the sample at the LFS was an o2 free envorinment. The important thing was that two different test kits did read about the same at the same time.
 

broomer5

Active Member
bob, so basically you're saying you don't think you ever really had 160ppm nitrates, but you did have a bad test kit all along ?
That's the most reasonable thing I've read ;)
What I would really like to know ( from anyone ) is this ...
How much nitrate does macro algae consume ?
For a gram of algae, say caulerpa, what would be the typical range in ppm that this 1 gram of algae could possibly use for growth - over a given period of time, with a given set of lighting duration.
I know there are a lot of variables - but it would be cool to know a "rule of thumb" value.
Phosphate would be good to know too - for nothing more than curiosity.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Broomer:
thanks for asking the question on the effect of plant life on nitrate consumption. As i read the posts on this board i get the impression from some that only bacterial action consumes nitrates. Although I am now sure that anaerobic action in sand does consume nitrates, I am sure the primary action is plant life. For instance, there is virtually no bubbles from the sand in either of my tanks. Therefore, the nitrates must be consumed by other means. Yet I get the feeling the very last thing we advise for new tank setups is establishing a thriving plant growth. The only thing I regret on my 55g is not doing that right from the beginning. I am sure I would have a much better tank now if i had. But then LFS didn't even mention plant life. And the tank had been running for two months before anyone in the trade even mentioned macro algae or plants. New hobbiest deserve better than that.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by Kipass4130
i would like to see too... i often wonder if the little masses of macros in my 5 gal fuge are enough to do anything... i know my DSB are

Kip: How do you know? And what do you consider a little mass? After all 40PPM of your tank is probably not a whole lot of pounds.
I wonder what would happen if you took the macro out of your fug for a couple of days? But then you couldn't take out the DSB to compare it to.
I am interested in finding the answer also.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Taken from an earlier post:
Caulerpa Racemosa:
Nitrogen = 650ppm
Phosphorus = 41ppm
Sulphur = 440ppm
Red Sea Xenia:
Nitrogen = 13000ppm
Phosphorus = 580ppm
Sulphur = 1200ppm
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
Taken from an earlier post:
Caulerpa Racemosa:
Nitrogen = 650ppm
Phosphorus = 41ppm
Sulphur = 440ppm
Red Sea Xenia:
Nitrogen = 13000ppm
Phosphorus = 580ppm
Sulphur = 1200ppm

Bang: interesting. I am having trouble applying this to my tank. For instance does this mean that caulpera racemosa consumer 650 ppm per day per pound of caulpera racemosa? It would be nice to have the consumption rate per mass in order do know what effect it has on our systems. Otherwise one could get the idea that a 500g tank at 650ppm nitrates would instantly go to 0 ppm nitrates with an ounce of caulpera.
 

bang guy

Moderator
The numbers I posted reflects the ingredients of dehydrated material.
I did the math once but my memory is poor. The result was something like a pound of Caulerpa (not dehydrated) removes 0.2 grams of Nitrate. This is the weight of a pretty hefty handful of algae.
50 gallons of saltwater at 1 ppm Nitrate contains about 0.2 grams of Nitrate so every pound of algae lowers the Nitrate 1ppm for each 50 gallons of water.
IMO this is a pretty decent rate of excess nutrient removal. It's not a magic wand but constant trimming and removal of Caulerpa should show a steady, albiet slow, decline in Nitrate levels.
Just a guess, but a 55 gallon tank loaded with rock connected to a decent sump & refugium probably has 50 gallons of water in the system. If my math is off I appologize and I hope someone will correct it.
The sample size was very small so your results could vary significantly.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
bang
interesting. The real question is how much nitrate is consumed to produce that mass of macro. Obviously some of that is combined with carbon dioxide and oxygen is released. Equally important is how many ppm of nitrate is produced by the bioload in the system.
All I know is that the nitrates in my 20g macro went to 0.0 in a week this time. When first set up I attempted to use it as a hospital tank for a small angle fish without any plant life. The fish was dead and decomposing in the tank 3 days later (i was outta town). Needless to say all parameters were off the scale. I then added the macro (kelp caulpera, ulva, gracillera (sp)) and in three weeks all parameters were 0.0. I had no circulation at the time and a baby molly even grew to 1 1/2 inches without feeding. I suspect my 20-40 ppm in my 55g would be much higher if it were not for the plant life. I seriously doubt that I have 50# of caulpera on both tanks total.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Coral, Diatoms, Sponges, even Fish consume Nitrate to build body mass. The question is how much EXCESS Nitrate is consumed by growing and removing Caulerpa, Xenia, or whatever from your system.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by jarvis
My brain is starting to hurt now.:p Bang Do all corals remove NO3 to some extent?

All Corals that host Zooxanthellae consume NO3-
I don't know about ahermatypic corals nor do I know which corals consume more than they produce.
As a WAG I would make the off the wall statement that the more light demanding the coral is the better the chance that it's consuming more Nitrate than it's producing.
I overlooked Clams... sorry... Tridacna Clams consume a LOT of Nitrate. They can also consume Ammonia directly from the water column which has the result of reduced Nitrate.
 

jarvis

Member
Sorry about the thread hijacking bob.
Bang How about phoshates? They are infact the building blocks. But do most corals have the ability to extract it from the water column or does it have to come in the form of food or waste. I am really starting to see why a you have 1000gal fuge.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Hosting corals can obtain Phosphate indirectly through Zooxanthellae but the amount is minor to none. They must feed to grow. Free phosphate appears to inhibit growth.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by dreeves
When I asked about your test kits..I was referring to what brand you were using.

Dreeves: sorry had to get that from home. The old test kit and new that I use for nitrates is from aquarium pharmacitials (sp LOL). My new ammonia kit and the LFS nitrate kit was from aquarium systems.
By the way, the rocks in the tank continue to clean up. Two rocks are almost totally clean and all others fading. Can even see some corraline from under the algaes :p
 
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