scrubber= no skimmer?

[deejeff442]

i am really interested in the upcoming water readings this scrubber makes.i read it takes 3-4 months to get the good red/brown algae going and green algae to start.
it just seems too simple to work.

 

[deejeff442]

well the screen is already getting color to it.this thing works pretty fast

 

[ernestpolska]

lols thats what i said .... a simple thing like this can be such a good filter? lols mine cost around 3 bucks cuz i already had a old pump all i neede was the sheet and half inch pvc piping that cost me like 99c in home depot .......i heard your suppose to wait to weeks and then scrub one side off then the second the next week lols thats what i did

 

[mkroher]

In a perfect world, the anaerobic areas of live rock and a deep sand bed can complete the full nitrogen cycle into nitrogen gas. But our systems aren't perfect, which is while we yield nitrates from overfeeding that need to be removed.
The way I see it, a skimmer doesn't remove nitrates. It removes the organic compounds in the water BEFORE they get a chance to turn into nitrates. Also, (please correct me if I'm wrong) I believe algae feeds on Ammonium, not nitrates.
My next tank build I want to use a scrubber and go skimmer-less.

 

[jstdv8]

I'm going skimmerless on my reef tank with a scrubber.
I've also seen tanks that have no mechanical filtration at all and just run off water changes though.
The turf scrubber is far more powerful than at removing all the things that we don't want in our tank while still allowing the left over food the fish don't get to break down and become coral food.
I didn't see any pictures, is your screen lit two sided?
We have a good scrubber thread going right now, where a bunch of people are jsut getting thiers up and going and sharing thier results.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/382073/turf-scrubbers
If you'd like to join in and see what the others have going. try and get some nitrate and phosphate readings now and then post again once your screen starts filling in really good in about 3-4 weeks.

 

[santamonica]

its a 250 dt.the algae screen is 15 by 8 inches.i was thinking of putting another next to it all i would need is another light ,screen and thats it
Yes you need to. The one screen is too small for a 250, especially if you get into feeding your corals a lot with liquid food.

i read it takes 3-4 months to get the good red/brown algae going and green algae to start.
You want green hair... that is what filters best. If you get red/brown turf eventually, you'll want to saw it off by scraping a hack saw blade.

The way I see it, a skimmer doesn't remove nitrates. It removes the organic compounds in the water BEFORE they get a chance to turn into nitrates.

That's like removing the steak because you don't like the smoke. Steak is the food, and nitrates are the smoke. A skimmer removes the steak and leaves the smoke. A scrubber removes the smoke and leaves the steak, which is what you want. All food in a tank... dissolved and particulate, is food for corals. If you skim, you remove it. Leave the food in, and just scrub the smoke out.
Also, (please correct me if I'm wrong) I believe algae feeds on Ammonium, not nitrates.

Algae prefers ammonia, especially in the form of urea. Next is nitrite, then nitrate.
I've also seen tanks that have no mechanical filtration at all and just run off water changes though.

Waterchanges remove the coral food, however. A 30 percent waterchange removes 30 percent of the food, and gives you 30 percent less coral growth.
Algae lets you filter like the ocean does: Algae does all the filtering, and all the feeding, for all the oceans and lakes.

 

[acrylic51]

Going SPS I would leave the skimmer regardless.....Your not going to remove everything....

 

[santamonica]

...Although you certainly could. Especially if you want it to run like natural reefs, which have about 100 times more food in the water. Sps eat tons of food particles, more than you could ever feed. In the wild, acro's can grow 20 inches per year because of all the food they get (and no nutrients to go with it).

 

[acrylic51]

But in the wild that's not a closed system and the nutrient removal is more efficient than we could ever replicate in our closed systems.

 

[beaslbob]

Imho what is needed for our fish and corals is to marintain low levels of toxins like fish wastes, and to provide food, light, temperature and so on for our fish and corals. Skimmers are not needed for that process and in fact remove some coral food like pods and the like.
my .02

 

[acrylic51]

I'm in agreement that a tank can be run without a skimmer, but by no means is it harmful.....And yes skimmers don't discriminate what they remove, but the thought that they remove pods and such is so small it is irrelevant. Most people overfeed anyways, so few if any being consumed by the skimmer is irrelevant IMHO, and just on the same line thinking return pumps kill pods is crazy as well.

 

[beaslbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382670/scrubber-no-skimmer/20#post_3358136
I'm in agreement that a tank can be run without a skimmer, but by no means is it harmful.....And yes skimmers don't discriminate what they remove, but the thought that they remove pods and such is so small it is irrelevant. Most people overfeed anyways, so few if any being consumed by the skimmer is irrelevant IMHO, and just on the same line thinking return pumps kill pods is crazy as well.
Actually I mispoke. Eric Borneman did an analysis of skimmate under a microscope and there was a lot of coral and pod Larvae removed by the skimmer. Plus phyto plankton and rotifers are removed as well.

 

[jstdv8]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/382670/scrubber-no-skimmer/20#post_3358136
I'm in agreement that a tank can be run without a skimmer, but by no means is it harmful.....And yes skimmers don't discriminate what they remove, but the thought that they remove pods and such is so small it is irrelevant. Most people overfeed anyways, so few if any being consumed by the skimmer is irrelevant IMHO, and just on the same line thinking return pumps kill pods is crazy as well.
with a scrubber I don't beleive it's possible to overfeed. I feed WAAAAAY more than my fish need just becuase I can. All it does is grow the screen in faster and with more algae you have more filtering. plenty of extras to break down for coral food and CUC food.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/382670/scrubber-no-skimmer/20#post_3358200
with a scrubber I don't beleive it's possible to overfeed. I feed WAAAAAY more than my fish need just becuase I can. All it does is grow the screen in faster and with more algae you have more filtering. plenty of extras to break down for coral food and CUC food.
Is this something that you recently started doing since the incorporation of the scrubber?

 

[jstdv8]

yes since the scrubber. When I ran a skimemr I fed very very little (like starving my fish little) and still couldnt get the nitrates below 40 and teh phos below .5 with 10% weekly water changes.
Now I feed between 3 and 5 full cubes a day. 0 nitrates, 0 phospahtes, 0 algae

 

[santamonica]

But in the wild that's not a closed system and the nutrient removal is more efficient than we could ever replicate in our closed systems.
But you can replicate, using algae for filteration the way the ocean does. Zero N and P.

marintain low levels of toxins like fish wastes
Important to distinguish between solid "detritus" waste, which is actually food for corals, and liquid "urea" waste, which is a toxin due to the ammonia.
the thought that they remove pods and such is so small it is irrelevant

Pods are the main food source for stoney corals.
Most people overfeed anyways

Studies have found that the average 100 gallons of ocean water is "fed" over 1 pound of food every 24 hours. This would be 4 quarter-pounder hamburgers every 24 hours. Average. I doubt anybody is overfeeding their tanks.

 

[snowflakeclown]

Ok my thoughts,
I am drinking the cool-aid of this scrubber idea, however it is no different than filter media or a large sponge in your refugium or wet/dry sump. While I see this working, we achieve basically the same thing with bio-balls, etc. I have never had an issue with bio balls as some have. I think using RO/DI water is the key to that mystery.
I am not buying that a skimmer removes pods, etc. from your system. Pods exist on the glass, in the sand, in the rock,etc. They do not stay in the water column. So if any are getting removed it has to be a very small amount. I have a relatively new system and I have a TON of pods all over my glass. I have so many, I am thinking of getting a dragonet.
A scrubber would be best suited, in my opinion, as a third or fourth section in the sump or wet/dry. Why not pass filtered water through the wet/dry, balls-live rock-whatever, then to the scrubber and then back into the tank?
Someone said that a scrubber is virtually a refugium anyway, I agree with that somewhat. The only advantage I see is that you are exposing larger amounts of water to the algae and also generating more output in your tank using a large pump.

 

[santamonica]

I am drinking the cool-aid of this scrubber idea, however it is no different than filter media or a large sponge in your refugium or wet/dry sump
It's actually the opposite. Filter media/sponges/floss/socks trap food and waste, allowing it to rot and add nutrients to the water every minute, and thus keeps the food and waste from reaching the corals (who eat food and waste). Scrubbers do not trap food or waste, and, scrubbers add even more food to the water.

we achieve basically the same thing with bio-balls
Bio balls convert ammonia to nitrate, and add some oxygen. Scrubbers remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, metals (including copper), and C02, and they add oxygen, vitamins, proteins, amino acids, and carbohydrates. And raise the pH too.

I have never had an issue with bio balls as some have. I think using RO/DI water is the key to that mystery.
Separate issues.

I am not buying that a skimmer removes pods, etc. from your system.
Do a little research. Pods are heavily removed, as are all other types of coral food (and food for small fish). Better yet, buy a cheap used microscope online and look at the live animals in the skimmate yourself.

Pods exist on the glass, in the sand, in the rock, etc

These are not pelagic pods, they are benthic. Corals eat mostly pelagic. And that's what skimmers remove... pelagic pods.
They do not stay in the water column

Yes, they would, if they were not filtered out. Pelagic life is the backbone of the microbial loop in the ocean, and it feeds everything in the ocean. Everything. Search the web for "microbial loop", or "primary production".
So if any are getting removed it has to be a very small amount

It's a very large amount. Allmost all of them. People who turn off all their mechanical filters (including skimmers) report that a huge, huge amount of pods start become visible... sometimes almost taking over the tanks.
Someone said that a scrubber is virtually a refugium anyway, I agree with that somewhat.

Correct in that it does make baby copepods. But for bigger pods, you need a real fuge with rock rubble for the pods to hide and grow in.
The only advantage I see is that you are exposing larger amounts of water to the algae and also generating more output in your tank using a large pump.

No, the advantage of a scrubber of a fuge is the filtering power. A scrubber will wipe out nitrate and phosphate, almost no matter how much you feed. And it will kill your other macros too.

 

[jstdv8]

IMO comparing bio balls to a scrubber is in no way apples to apples. In fact it's more like comparing apples to cornbread.
Bioballs are basically another form of liverock, a high surface area structure in your tank that allows for alot of bacteria growth to process your water.
Scrubbers have very little to do with bacteria or surface area. It is much more closely related to growing a different kind of macro algae in your system (like cheato)
with 2 major advantages.
1.) you are exporting ALL of the nutrients the macro has absorbed WEEKLY. that bad stuff is completley gone from the system and flushed down the drain.
2.) With out the restirction of light having to pass through water you can grow WAAAAY more algae in a very short period of time.
Bioballs = LR substitute
Scrubber = Cheato substitute
Not compareable

 

[florida joe]

Bio balls provide a platform for dissimilatory reduction
Algae scrubbers preform their task via assimilation