Sec. of Edu./Obama want longer school....

[aquaknight]

Can't believe I'm the one going to start this, but watched Colbert Report tonight and most of the show was on Education Secretary Arne Duncan and Obama pushing now for longer school time. Arne was actually the guest.
I don't want to post an article from a bias source, so you pick (it's the same article

)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...mmer-vacation/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33054056/
My opinion is why? To me, it's like the gun laws we currently have. If we can't enforce what we have now, what good is more laws going to do? If kids in the US are already going to school more then the other countries, that out rank us, what good is having more the same bad/broken school system going to do?
(Using the hours in the article)
So they typically have more school days, but less hours in a day, and less total hours. I can remember waking up at 6am every damn school to get ready in time. You think any of the classes before lunch I cared about? If I could get up at 10, instead of 6, and have 20 more days of school, I'd be all over that. Not to mention have a more productive day overall.
So I really have no idea how keep kids till say 5pm is going to do anything. There are some goods ideas in the plan, like morphing the schools more into community centers, available later hours, on weekends etc.

 

[lovethesea]

I saw an article on this over the weekend. It has disaster written all over it. Good intentions, but wrong application. This will place so much strain on already over stressed school districts. $$ in extra time for buses, teachers, energy, staff, child care etc. Is this being driven to keep kids off the streets and out of parents hair or actually for extra learning?
If some kids aren't being taught/learning effectivly in 6-7 hours a day what makes him think 9-10 hr days/6 days/10 month school year etc. is going to make a difference. He is wanting us all to change for the ones who aren't learning or just don't want to learn?
At this point I think education is a behavioral thing. If the parents don't care the kids don't either. Teachers don't have a leg to stand on with some of these kids. Teachers call parents regarding grades/behavior etc. and it falls of deaf ear. Some students dare a teacher to call knowing that either the parent won't answer/care or do darn thing. Heck there was a story just yesterday about a kid in a school here with the flu and the parent kept sending him to school. 6 UNWORKING phone numbers on file, sick kid being sent to school in the nurses office infected many others, being put on a bus back home with healthy kids. Only a threat that family services would get involved made this parent keep the kid home and provide a working number.
He can do anything he wants to make everyone think they are being handed this "wonderful opportunity", but what it boils down to who is going to take it? Most areas have great teachers, schools, opportunities, but the few that are not taking advantage of it are the ones that are going to cost the most.

 

[renogaw]

personally, i'm actually ok with this. i do though think this is going to finally tick off the teachers who think he is the osiah... they have contracts for their wages so i'd be interested to see if they get paid more, since their wages are actually supposed to be equivalents of a normal yearly wage. i'm thinking they won't/shouldn't get paid more. they will lose their summer vacations, and those summer vacations always tick me off.
plus, lets face it, our school system IS antiquated since it is based on an agricultural society where the kids have to help in the fields. now, all they do is goof off all summer.
and, this will be nice since i won't have to pay a baby sitter/day care to watch my growing toddler if she's in school more.

 

[lovethesea]

pay the babysitter or pay the extra taxes.......

Like I said, I think we can easy tweek this, several districts in our area have "year 'round" school. They work just fine. Is this system making the kids/families that don't care or don't want to be there any better? Nope.
Both of my kids average 1 1/2 - 2 hours of homework a night, even the homework will have to be changed. Even I wouldn't want to go to school for 8 hours (sitting in a chair all day with no activity because P.E. has been removed from many schools) and then go home to the same homework.
Obama puts the cart before the horse.......this will take YEARS and YEARS of planning,changing, testing and PAYING for. He will want this under his belt sooner rather than later and we won't see the long term problems with it until it is too late and we can't turn back.
The system does need a change, but but so do the parents and kids that don't give a darn. Most teachers want to teach, but I can't imagine wanting to be a teacher and having to deal with the crapola that they put up with on a daily basis.

 

[renogaw]

the funniest thing about teachers' responses to this that i've spoken to so far is that this isn't that big of a deal to them, compared to NCLB.
as for paying taxes vs babysitter... i get a federal tax break on my property taxes, but nothing for babysitters

 

[lovethesea]

why don't you use your child care credit?

 

[reefraff]

I am sick and tired of paying to raise other people's kids. I have no problem paying for education but this is just turning schools into daycare centers.
I say cut out the useless BS classes and run school from 10 to 4 5 days a week with maybe july and august off. It gives the kids and teachers a break and allows for maintenance of the facilities. Of course parents would have to pay for babysitters and the tourist industry might take a slight hit so we can't do that.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by lovethesea
http:///forum/post/3149567
why don't you use your child care credit?
oh, we probably already do that (is that what the pretax deduction my wife makes that gets reimbursed to us by submitting the daycare's bills?). but, that credit is income based up to $3k. I'd bet our accountant used it, but there's a lot of things out there that my wife and i don't qualify for the whole amount.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I personally don't like the idea of adding more school days or hours to the school day. If we can't already educate our kids with what we got, then what does it matter if we add extra time to it? I'm sorry, but I grew up in the agrarian system, and I am a college graduate fixing to become a teacher! It's not the instructional time that a kid recieves, but the QUALITY of education that they recieve. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[lovethesea]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3149571
run school from 10 to 4 5 days a week with maybe july and august off..
The problem with a fixed time frame is there are generally 3 levels of schools with one set of buses. Here the middle schools start about 7:15 high school starts at 7:55 and grade schools about 9 am. Back in the day (and a lot of states still do it) we used to go from Sept(day after labor day) - mid June. NOW all of the sudden we are starting the first week in August and getting out right after Memorial day.

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/3149577
oh, we probably already do that (is that what the pretax deduction my wife makes that gets reimbursed to us by submitting the daycare's bills?). .
I guess since you are using pre tax dollars to pay for it, you are not eligible for the amount you pay in your taxes also. I have to look at one of our old tax files to see the max. we took every year.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Another question:
If I don't have to work to get free housing, free food, free medical care, and a free education, then why would I work at all? Why would I work harder so that everyone else can enjoy these benefits that I am not recieving?

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
http:///forum/post/3149677
Another question:
If I don't have to work to get free housing, free food, free medical care, and a free education, then why would I work at all? Why would I work harder so that everyone else can enjoy these benefits that I am not recieving?
you're sounding like a republican...

 

[snakeblitz33]

I was a republican for many years. I'm more independant now. I'm just posing the question - why work when you can get away with not working? I work because I want and need things... If the government provides everything that we need, then why work for what you have? Next thing you know, the gov't will be telling you what to produce and how much to produce for the benefit of the whole - wow, sounds like communism to me.
I feel like the government should take care of its people as well, but I think that it is going too far at the moment. Too many changes too fast without thinking about long term effects.

 

[lovethesea]

Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
http:///forum/post/3149686
- why work when you can get away with not working? I work because I want and need things... If the government provides everything that we need, then why work for what you have? Next thing you know, the gov't will be telling you what to produce and how much to produce for the benefit of the whole - wow, sounds like communism to me.
I feel like the government should take care of its people as well, but I think that it is going too far at the moment. Too many changes too fast without thinking about long term effects.
I tend to agree with you there. The middle class is not benefiting from any of this.
I have said "too much too fast" for awhile now. Cart before the horse so to speak. Hurry up and do it so we can say we did it and let everyone figure out the errors/problems with the plan.

 

[nina&noah]

As a former teacher (8 years until my son was born), I will tell you what I think about this...
If you took all the time out of my day that I spent teaching standardized testing, you would have half of the school day. This may not be the case everywhere, but here in Florida, the districts are so afraid of the accountability of the tests that they have mandated standardized test instruction. I wasn't even allowed to teach novels because it wasn't on "the test." Don't increase the school day, just help the teachers make the school day more productive!
Also, you can't actually expect teachers to work an extra 2-3hours and not get paid for it. I don't think you all realize how much work we have to do "after hours." Sure, we may go home at 3:30, but we are in no way done with our day at that time. Part of the reason I quit my job is because I had too much work to do and not enough time to spend with my son. It just wasn't worth the money. We get paid less than other occupations that don't even require a degree. Don't add insult to injury by expecting even more.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by nina&noah
http:///forum/post/3150151
As a former teacher (8 years until my son was born), I will tell you what I think about this...
If you took all the time out of my day that I spent teaching standardized testing, you would have half of the school day. This may not be the case everywhere, but here in Florida, the districts are so afraid of the accountability of the tests that they have mandated standardized test instruction. I wasn't even allowed to teach novels because it wasn't on "the test." Don't increase the school day, just help the teachers make the school day more productive!
Also, you can't actually expect teachers to work an extra 2-3hours and not get paid for it. I don't think you all realize how much work we have to do "after hours." Sure, we may go home at 3:30, but we are in no way done with our day at that time. Part of the reason I quit my job is because I had too much work to do and not enough time to spend with my son. It just wasn't worth the money. We get paid less than other occupations that don't even require a degree. Don't add insult to injury by expecting even more.
So you are saying we spend to much time teaching the useful requirements (standardized testing)? Or not enough. Because to me four hours a day on math, science, english, and the basic principals in that test aren't enough if we still have kids failing them. The test isn't THAT hard.
The other thing I want to point out is salary...which other occupation gets 3 month off a year, 2 weeks for christmas, a week for thanksgiving, a fall break, a spring break...AND vacation and sick leave on top of it? Just give me one....

 

[nina&noah]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3150200
So you are saying we spend to much time teaching the useful requirements (standardized testing)? Or not enough. Because to me four hours a day on math, science, english, and the basic principals in that test aren't enough if we still have kids failing them. The test isn't THAT hard.
The other thing I want to point out is salary...which other occupation gets 3 month off a year, 2 weeks for christmas, a week for thanksgiving, a fall break, a spring break...AND vacation and sick leave on top of it? Just give me one....
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the profession. That is the problem with our education system, most people look at it from the outside and think exactly like you do.
The test isn't that hard, you are correct in saying that. The problem is that we don't teach the basic subjects, we teach the test. We teach how to analyze the problems to come up with the correct solutions. We teach how to go back into the stories to find correct answers. We are literally teaching the kids how to take the test. We teach from books like "FCAT blast off," and "FCAT Coach." I was told to stop teaching novels even though my students the year before ALL scored in the 90th percentile. Math has become a race to "expose" the kids to all of the material that will be on the test. We can't actually take our time to make sure the kids master any one skill. We are creating test takers, not well-rounded educated students. Not to mention how dreadfully boring school has become.
As for the time off, my husband already did that math and calculated that with all of the breaks we still make about as much as an uneducated secretary. You also over calculated the breaks. We get just under 2 months for summer (teachers get out after the kids and start before the kids), we don't get a fall break, and we get 2 days for Thanksgiving. Maybe it is different in you area, but that is what it is in most areas. Now don't get me wrong, the breaks are a perk. However, if this country doesn't start treating teaching as a profession, you will lose all of the good teachers. Again, I had 8 years of experience and a masters degree. I should also mention that in my 8 years, I NEVER had one kid fail the test.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by nina&noah
http:///forum/post/3150257
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the profession. That is the problem with our education system, most people look at it from the outside and think exactly like you do.
The test isn't that hard, you are correct in saying that. The problem is that we don't teach the basic subjects, we teach the test. We teach how to analyze the problems to come up with the correct solutions. We teach how to go back into the stories to find correct answers. We are literally teaching the kids how to take the test. We teach from books like "FCAT blast off," and "FCAT Coach." I was told to stop teaching novels even though my students the year before ALL scored in the 90th percentile. Math has become a race to "expose" the kids to all of the material that will be on the test. We can't actually take our time to make sure the kids master any one skill. We are creating test takers, not well-rounded educated students. Not to mention how dreadfully boring school has become.
As for the time off, my husband already did that math and calculated that with all of the breaks we still make about as much as an uneducated secretary. You also over calculated the breaks. We get just under 2 months for summer (teachers get out after the kids and start before the kids), we don't get a fall break, and we get 2 days for Thanksgiving. Maybe it is different in you area, but that is what it is in most areas. Now don't get me wrong, the breaks are a perk. However, if this country doesn't start treating teaching as a profession, you will lose all of the good teachers. Again, I had 8 years of experience and a masters degree. I should also mention that in my 8 years, I NEVER had one kid fail the test.
There was a school in the area where I grew up that recently got some award for how well their students achieved over previous years on the testing. None of their other statistics improved, just the results of those specific test. Proof teaching the test doesn't work.
This is why I think the Federal Department of education needs to be abolished. Congress should decide on national standard and leave it up to the states to meet them. What works in the inner city most likely isn't going to be real effective in an Iowa farm town.