Shark Bite Rules!

[nordy]

Anybody else out there like this system? I have been in the maintenance fixit business for more years than I care to remember but have never mastered the art of sweating copper pipes/fittings. I can, and have done it, but have always had problems soldering, probably because I haven't done it often enough to become proficient at it.
The Cash Acme Shark Bite plumbing system is so very cool-quick, easy, no muss no fuss, no torch in confined spaces sorrounded by old dry wood, works when there is still water in the pipe, and my customers like it too. It is very expensive, but when I figure out the time and aggravation that I save, plus the fact that I just add the cost to my customers bill, makes it a no-brainer for me. I put in a new pressure regulator in my house with it-took a few minutes and so easy.

 

[renogaw]

while i understand the need for such a fitting, like propress, i feel that sharkbites or their competitors really trivialize the industry and make a "professional"'s job into something that any joe schmoe can do.
my guys have them on the truck, but are for emergency use only. such as when you cannot turn the water off to solder or when that brass pipe needs a quick fix (yes... you can put a 3/4 sharkbite onto a 1/2 brass pipe).
but, no, sharkbites and propress are quite honestly a detriment to the plumbing trade IMO.

 

[nordy]

Please help me understand why you feel that it triviliazes the skilled plumbing trades? Is it because small profitable home repair jobs that might have required a skilled plumber now can indeed be done by joe schmoe? I look at this as an advantage to consumers and do it yourselfers, even if it does take away some work from plumbers. I manage a 46 year old condo and there is no way I could keep my property maintained without my skilled plumbers-I depend on them and they respond immediately when I call them because they know that I have a lot of work for them and they are the only company that I give my business to. I have great respect for plumbers and for the skills that they bring to the job, but they shouldn't feel insulted or marginalized by this system-it will never be used for whole house plumbing installations due to its cost, but it works so well for people like me who are handy, except with a torch. And, there are no SharkBite fittings for 3" copper!
Plus, the Shark Bite has a real advantage over the ProPress-it can be easily disassmebled and reused or reconfigured, unlike Propress or sweat fittings.
Skilled tradespeople should never feel insulted or taken advantage of by new technology-there is always a place for highly experienced, skilled, and conscienctious tradespeople regardless of what new technology comes down the pike!

 

[renogaw]

it trivializes the trade because now without the need for tools, solder, torches, and skill in soldering, any joe schmoe can now fix their plumbing problems. You don't think sharkbites are being done for whole houses?? think again. I worked in a wholesaler for 12 years. when PEX started hitting the market in MA (it was not legal until 2005 i believe) the biggest problem is going from pex to copper. Well, these sharkbites make that transition instead of soldering a transition fitting. Oh, then CPVC started coming strong, and you guess it, transitioning from cpvc to copper was too expensive without sharkbites.
one of our service guys is so into propress that he ends up making the easy direct replacement of water heaters look like crap cause he didn't take the time to unsolder a fitting and resweat it. instead, in some change outs, you've got two propress couplings right under existing couplings or even unions.
a majro problem with these two types of fittings is it makes the homeowner think "well, i could have done that" (especially with the sharkbites) and so the next time they need a repair, they don't call us, they go down to HD or Lowes and grab a couple sharkbites. that's the problem with sharkbites

 

[darthtang aw]

How much are you getting paid for this advertisement?

 

[renogaw]

bout 95/hr if he were one of my customers taking work away from us

 

[d-man]

how about this I'll call you and you can put a sharkbite on my system ya I like it ( can it go "in-tank")
but really your both right new easer tools are better but it takes a pro to know what, when and why to use what and if this depretion thing is going to end we need to give each other work but at the same time what most peole forget in this biz is that people buy something because thy want it not because it right

 

[aquaknight]

That seems like a pretty big overstatement there Reno. I just can't specifically see how this product is that bad. I mean it's just connections. I don't believe that someone's decision to whether or not call a professional, hinges on whether or not they can sweat pipes. Unless of course a plumber's job is really that high percentage of 'simple jobs'?
I liken it to if a product came out that would make changing your motor oil simple. Would the mechanics be up in arms? Doubtful, because I'd think the percentage of people who take their car to the shop vs. DIY'ers would be virutally unchanged?

 

[scsinet]

The issue I have with sharkbite and their counterparts is that they contain a rubber gasket in them. This degrades overtime and will eventually leak.
They do make sense for situations where you can't completely stop the water flow, but the bread trick works well for that too.
I see renogaw's point though. Ultimately it devalues a well done, professional job in the eyes of a layperson. One could look at this and say "Pros don't want the competition," but in the end, the sharkbite is an inferior connection to a permanently sweated joint, but a homeowner looking at it doesn't know that.
Here's a story to illustrate my point. I am a big fan of Klipsch speakers. I have a pair of very nice ones in my main listening room. These things are more than a paycheck.. EACH, not per pair.
Shortly after I bought them, Klipsch started whoring our their speakers (the cheap Synergy line) to Best Buy. Now, when people come into my listening room, sometimes they'll comment... "Oh, I've seen these at Best Buy." Well... no you didn't. The ones I have are from a top-end line that is only sold through specialty audio dealers.
I know it sounds like I am being too materialistic over losing my bragging rights, but it stinks that when I worked so hard to get these magnificent speakers, people equate them to Best Buy junk. Laypersons don't know what a good speaker sounds like over some crappy Bose, Polks, of Cerwins, so escoterism is all I have.
In the eyes of a layperson, my speakers are devalued. In my case, the only thing bruised is my ego.
In a plumber's case, he might lose a job because someone who doesn't understand the inferiority of their DIY job using sharkbites - someone who if he/she knew would have gladly had the professional job done.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3035926
That seems like a pretty big overstatement there Reno. I just can't specifically see how this product is that bad. I mean it's just connections. I don't believe that someone's decision to whether or not call a professional, hinges on whether or not they can sweat pipes. Unless of course a plumber's job is really that high percentage of 'simple jobs'?
I liken it to if a product came out that would make changing your motor oil simple. Would the mechanics be up in arms? Doubtful, because I'd think the percentage of people who take their car to the shop vs. DIY'ers would be virutally unchanged?
it's not that a high percentage of ALL plumbers jobs are simple, but the nice simple repair helps offset the "oopsies" that end up being losses.
ok, let me put it a different way. You're my customer, and the minimum charge is $95. We show up cause you called us cause your pipe is leaking. We get there, notice a small pin hole in your copper. there's two fixes:
1) we get out our torch, drain down your system, cut the pipe, clean the pipe, and solder a coupling to fix the leak. this takes say 35 mins (mainly cause the water draining). you get your $95 charge plus about a $5 material bill, we're out the door in about an hour for $100.
2) the guy drains down your system, cuts the pipe, slaps a sharkbite fitting on, and is done in 15 mins. You still get your bill for $95, but now the material charge is ~$12, so now we're out the door in half an hour for 107.
which would you want as the consumer?

 

[renogaw]

and now... cause you're the type of customer that stands around watching the guy work... you see that he used a sharkbite and hey, that's easy enough to use... wooo, a search online tells you that home depot sells them. and wow, that fitting is about $8 there...
are you going to call us again next time you have a pin hole?

 

[d-man]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3035940
The issue I have with sharkbite and their counterparts is that they contain a rubber gasket in them. This degrades overtime and will eventually leak.
They do make sense for situations where you can't completely stop the water flow, but the bread trick works well for that too.
I see renogaw's point though. Ultimately it devalues a well done, professional job in the eyes of a layperson. One could look at this and say "Pros don't want the competition," but in the end, the sharkbite is an inferior connection to a permanently sweated joint, but a homeowner looking at it doesn't know that.
Here's a story to illustrate my point. I am a big fan of Klipsch speakers. I have a pair of very nice ones in my main listening room. These things are more than a paycheck.. EACH, not per pair.
Shortly after I bought them, Klipsch started whoring our their speakers (the cheap Synergy line) to Best Buy. Now, when people come into my listening room, sometimes they'll comment... "Oh, I've seen these at Best Buy." Well... no you didn't. The ones I have are from a top-end line that is only sold through specialty audio dealers.
I know it sounds like I am being too materialistic over losing my bragging rights, but it stinks that when I worked so hard to get these magnificent speakers, people equate them to Best Buy junk. Laypersons don't know what a good speaker sounds like over some crappy Bose, Polks, of Cerwins, so escoterism is all I have.
In the eyes of a layperson, my speakers are devalued. In my case, the only thing bruised is my ego.
In a plumber's case, he might lose a job because someone who doesn't understand the inferiority of their DIY job using sharkbites - someone who if he/she knew would have gladly had the professional job done.
do you like your speakers? or do you care about what a layperson thinks? I think the hole thing can be sumed up by saying you get want you pay for and there is no replacing the pros they know what we don't and if you know well than your a pro, right

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/3035991
1) we get out our torch, drain down your system, cut the pipe, clean the pipe, and solder a coupling to fix the leak. this takes say 35 mins (mainly cause the water draining). you get your $95 charge plus about a $5 material bill, we're out the door in about an hour for $100.
2) the guy drains down your system, cuts the pipe, slaps a sharkbite fitting on, and is done in 15 mins. You still get your bill for $95, but now the material charge is ~$12, so now we're out the door in half an hour for 107.
which would you want as the consumer?
I would want the job that gets more of my money's worth. The full hour of work, instead of the shark bite. That happened to me one time when I took my car in. I had just replaced the struts myself and took it in for an alignment. They took the car in and about 20min goes by. Supposedly the struts were off-alignment and they needed to do a further job and needed an extra hour of work. I agreed, and then another 20mins goes by and boom, I'm out the door within a total of 45mins. What did I just pay the extra $75 for?

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/3035994
and now... cause you're the type of customer that stands around watching the guy work... you see that he used a sharkbite and hey, that's easy enough to use... wooo, a search online tells you that home depot sells them. and wow, that fitting is about $8 there...
are you going to call us again next time you have a pin hole?
Again, this is reaching back to what I said, me, personally, being the bit of DIY'er I am, I would have probably done it myself if it was that simple of job the first time. That particular customer your speaking of, I just don't see trying it themselves. Sure the shark bite makes the connection, but you still have to cut the old pipe old, section a length of new pipe, etc.
For exmaple, anyone that watched their car get it's oil changed. It's actually a pretty simple job. I just don't see that same customer changing the oil on their own car.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/3035991
1) we get out our torch, drain down your system, cut the pipe, clean the pipe, and solder a coupling to fix the leak. this takes say 35 mins (mainly cause the water draining). you get your $95 charge plus about a $5 material bill, we're out the door in about an hour for $100.
2) the guy drains down your system, cuts the pipe, slaps a sharkbite fitting on, and is done in 15 mins. You still get your bill for $95, but now the material charge is ~$12, so now we're out the door in half an hour for 107.
which would you want as the consumer?
I would want the job that gets more of my money's worth. The full hour of work, instead of the shark bite. That happened to me one time when I took my car in. I had just replaced the struts myself and took it in for an alignment. They took the car in and about 20min goes by. Supposedly the struts were off-alignment and they needed to do a further job and needed an extra hour of work. I agreed, and then another 20mins goes by and boom, I'm out the door within a total of 45mins. What did I just pay the extra $75 for? We didn't even use up the first hour, let alone the second

If I get charged for an hour of work, I would prefer if the guy did at least most of an hour's work. If he just popped in and out within 15mins, I would feel a bit jaded.
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/3035994
and now... cause you're the type of customer that stands around watching the guy work... you see that he used a sharkbite and hey, that's easy enough to use... wooo, a search online tells you that home depot sells them. and wow, that fitting is about $8 there...
are you going to call us again next time you have a pin hole?
Again, this is reaching back to what I said, me, personally, being the bit of DIY'er I am, I would have probably done it myself if it was that simple of job the first time. That particular customer your speaking of, I just don't see trying it themselves. Sure the shark bite makes the connection, but you still have to cut the old pipe old, section a length of new pipe, etc.
For exmaple, anyone that watched their car get it's oil changed. It's actually a pretty simple job. I just don't see that same customer changing the oil themselves on their own car.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Reno, I know what you mean. However, you have to realize the parts not going away. You need to embrace it instead. Find some way to capitalize on it. Our field changes everyday. Realize that people do to. While I myself am quite capable of doing many DIY jobs around here, sometimes, especially as I get older, it's just better to leave it to a professional. Then if it gets goofed up, I have someone to blame for it.

My point is that while you may loose a job or two. People change throughout their lives, some never learn or want to do things themselves. Some learn and do it for a while then go back to paying a pro. Some never do, but end up at some point with a need for a pro. Adapt to simply just get more jobs. I know right now in this economy it's tough to do that. I spend a lot of time myself waiting for a call. But with time that will change. Your embracing this new invention in your business keeps you from appearing afraid of it. Now, whatever you do, don't let it degrade your workmanship. But like you yourself stated, they are for emergencies only. Go with that.

 

[renogaw]

oh, i've never said they don't have a place. For instance, we had a 46 unit apt building with old brass pipe, and a coupling or some threads were bad. after testing to see if 3/4 sharkbites go over 1/2 brass pipe, which it does, the tech cut out a little bit of the pipe, unthreaded the fitting, screwed in the sharkbite, and shoved the brass pipe into the fitting. saved having to shut down completely the whole apartment building for more than a few minutes (plus, have you ever tried to find brass pipe in more than just nipp.le size?)
propress is nice for the same thing, but any plumber who uses sharkbites and propress exclusively imo is a hack.