Should I challenge my cycle?

[alohami]

I started cycling with partially cured live rock, live sand and about a 3" shrimp a little over a week ago. So far, I have not seen an ammonia spike, and I was testing every other day with Salifert tests. My nitrites and nitrates have spiked:
Nitrites: 4.0+
Nitrates: 100+
My question is, do I need to challenge my cycle with more shrimp to get a good ammonia spike? Or am I ok?
I just don't want to end up getting the ammonia when I add my first fish.
Thanks!

 

[mudplayerx]

All of the numbers are insignificant until at least 30 days have passed. Save your tests for after then

 

[willie_6]

I am absolutly not an expert on this, but from a lot of things I have read and heard. The 30-60 day cycling should not be mandatory. It can be shortened drastically with LR. I think the first question should be how much LR do you have and then you could predict more accurately someone's cycling time. He could be done in a week or less with enough LR. Just my opinion.
It sounds like you need to be patient. I am still not sold on the shrimp thing myself. I have heard conflicting reports. It sounds like you are cycling, so I guess the shrimp kicked it off. I had one lfs tell me it was impossible to cycle with shrimp. He said since it is dead already, it will not provide the bacteria (from urine and other good stuff) like a live fish. Unfortunanlty, for me I already used the shrimp. I am curious to hear someone's reasoning behind the shrimp. I understand the humane part. That's the part that sold me. I am just not sure how it works.

 

[vlondi]

Bacteria are everywhere; there are very, very few places that bacteria do not exist (on Earth). Nitrogen fixing bacteria are among those that are found in many, many places but in small amounts. Most of the time they are rather insignificant because they have nothing to feed one and, therefor, cannot multiply. A dead shrimp supplies food for these bacteria.
I'm sure you know how the cycle goes, but here it is again. You have your tank with water in it and a dead shrimp. As the shrimp decomposes (again, those bacteria are everywhere) it releases ammonia. Bacteria that feed on ammonia are put into high gear and multiply quickly; their respiration by-products are nitrites. As more bacteria decompose the shrimp (or other organic matter) the ammonia amounts rise providing more food for the ammonia bacterial colonies and a "spike" in our water readings. With more food, these ammonia guys can reproduce better. More of them they convert more ammonia into nitrite, reducing ammonia and creating the spike in nitrites. Repeat this process for nitrite feeding bacteria with a by-product of nitrates.
You don't need fish urine, feces, or anything from a fish. You simply need organic matter to jump start the small amounts of the nitrogen fixing bacteria that already exist everywhere. Live rock speeds up cycling processes because not only does it provide organic material in the form of die-off but it has some partially formed bacterial colonies needed for said cycle.
Fish store owners will almost always tell you something that makes you buy fish from them. They need to make money. You need to save money so just use a shrimp.
I hope that this was at least a little helpful and that I wasn't too incorrect on my description.

 

[dedwards]

Looks like your cycle is underway because your nitrites are at 4+. More than likely you simply missed the ammonia spike when it occured. Sometimes they are quick and other times they take a few days to go down. It all depends on how fast the bacteria is growing. I wouldn't worry much about it and continue to monitor every few days to see where your readings are at. All you really need to check for now is nitrites to make sure that it reaches 0.

 

[alohami]

I have approx. 25 lbs. of live rock in a 16 gal along with 20 lbs. Arag-alive sand.
Mudplayerx, I kind of agree with you that the numbers aren't that important right now since there is nothing in the tank to kill, but isn't it good to monitor the cycle? Maybe I'm just being picky, but I am keeping track of everything so I can watch all the levels and make sure everything is going as it should.
Willie_6, I mostly agree with you but I tend to not trust LFS entirely. I know there are many good ones out there, but I got a lot of bad info the first time I tried SW from a LFS, spent too much money and lost everything. In the end, it was my fault for not researching on my own. Oh well, lesson learned.
Vlondi, thats the way I understand it too. I do believe in the shrimp method because a lot of people have used it successfully and it makes sense to me, but I know not everyone is sold on it and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
DEdwards, I kind of figured that's where I was with the cycle, just not seeing the ammonia made me nervous.
You are all right! I probably just need to be patient. I just want to make sure I am doing things right this time around, so I wanted to get some opinions.
I feel better. Guess I'll just ride it out. Thanks for the input!

 

[willie_6]

Thanks for the shrimp explanation. I really couldn't debate it with the LFS guy, since I didn't really understand it.
I would love to hear what people have to say about shortning the cycle with LR. I have been told by lfs that 1lb of lr per gallon and you can cycle completly in 2-3 days, That may be a little soon, but 25lbs. in a 16 gal. should shorten the cyclying for sure. Yes?

 

[1journeyman]

I guess theoretically your liverock could have had enough ammonia fixing bacteria to have squelched an ammonia spike.
That seems unlikely though.

 

[alohami]

I doubt it had enough bacteria because my rock was completely uncured when I got it and only partially cured (for 1 week) when it went into the tank with the live sand and shrimp to start the cycle.
I certainly don't know it all, but I sincerely doubt the LFS was correct in saying that live rock would shorten the cycle to 2-3 days. Even if fully cured, it just doesn't like enough time for everything to go through the process and then stabilize.
Willie_6, does your LFS seem to know what they are talking about with salt water? Just curious.
I'm going to check my levels again tonight and see how things are going.

 

[willie_6]

Originally posted by AlohaMI
I doubt it had enough bacteria because my rock was completely uncured when I got it and only partially cured (for 1 week) when it went into the tank with the live sand and shrimp to start the cycle.
I certainly don't know it all, but I sincerely doubt the LFS was correct in saying that live rock would shorten the cycle to 2-3 days. Even if fully cured, it just doesn't like enough time for everything to go through the process and then stabilize.
Willie_6, does your LFS seem to know what they are talking about with salt water? Just curious.
I'm going to check my levels again tonight and see how things are going.
I have gone to roughly 8 lfs, all over Northern Ohio. I try to get a lot of feedback. I have been told several times that LR will reduce cycling. Also, as long as we have been discussing no one has come along and disputed the LR theory we are discussing. While I am buying into the LR cutting the cycle down, the fact still remains that you can ot set a date for the cyling to be over whether it is 30 days, two days or 100 days. The thing that got me was the feedback you received of wait 30 days. 30 and 60 seem to be standard responses but, it all come down to Nitrites disappearing and Ammonia, PH and nitrates settle. How can you say 30 or 60. Also, there are products you can buy to assist in the cycling process. JMO.

 

[mbrands]

Originally posted by mudplayerx
All of the numbers are insignificant until at least 30 days have passed. Save your tests for after then
This is flat out wrong! My tank cycled with shrimp and 45 pounds of LR in about 2 weeks.

 

[alohami]

Valid points Wilie_6 and mbrands!
Which is precisely why I AM testing as I go along. So that I can monitor my cycle and know for sure what has happened and if it has run it's course.
I don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that live rock definately helps the cycle and that every cycle is different, but I still don't think any tank can cycle as fast as 2-3 days.
I could be wrong though, I definately have been before and will be again!

 

[mbrands]

Originally posted by AlohaMI
I still don't think any tank can cycle as fast as 2-3 days.
I could be wrong though, I definately have been before and will be again!
On the contrary, I set up my 10 gallon with "old" water from a water change in my 55 and about 10 pounds of LR (also from my 55). I just tested this morning and it is done. Technically, I'm not sure this counts as a cycle since I used everything from an established tank.
The point is (as you said) every tank/cycle is different.

 

[ophiura]

IMO, you may have missed the ammonia spike, but CLEARLY you had ammonia as you have the next products of bacterial conversion - nitrite and nitrate.
A cycling tank should be tested (ideally daily - but who has the $$) very frequently. At least every couple of days...regardless of day 1 or day 30.
Tanks without LR often cycle in 4-6 weeks; with LR it can be shortened considerably, to the point where it becomes a concern on whether anything has happened. At this point, it would not hurt, IMO, to challenge the tank.
LR, even in small amounts, would have the "starter" bacteria we are looking for to convert ammonia to nitrite. The cycling process is the amount of time it takes for the population of those bacteria to reach levels where it can "eat" the available ammonia. We want lots of ammonia, because we want lots of bacteria. Ditto then for bacteria that "feed on" nitrite, and finally nitrate (which in many cases simply accumulates and is not broken down further due to the need for anaerobic conditions). You can add additional bacteria if you wish, but it will still take time for the bacteria to reproduce. But no worries, LR provides plenty to start with.
IMO, it doesn't really hurt to push the tank again...probably, you won't really see an ammonia spike. If you do, then it was a good idea!
Theoretically, you could have had more ammonia "eating" bacteria and didn't see too much of a spike, but there may be a bit of a backup as the bacteria converting nitrite build their population size. If the tank "stalled" at any phase (ammonia or nitrite), then I would consider the addition of more LR, or bacteria culture in a bottle. But because you have nitrate production, this indicates that the cycle is progressing, IMO.
What sort of test kits do you use? I am wondering if your nitrates really are that high (very high coming out of a cycle...lots of water changes may be in store before addition of fish).

 

[jacksdad]

I don't know if there has ever been a study on cycles, but there should be. I have a 24 gal Nanocube with about 20 lbs of LR(fully cured) and 30 lbs. of LS and my tank cycled in about 3 weeks. My 12 gal took about 5 weeks to cycle with 20 LR and CC.
All I can say is keep an eye on the levels and when they are 0 add a cleanup crew and continue to monitor levels, if nothing changes add a fish or two, again monitoring levels.
One of the biggest indicators for my tanks was diatoms, within a day or two after they appear I noticed my levels all went to 0 and stabilized.
good luck!
Bob

 

[cowfishrule]

if you are doubting it, challenge it. better to measure twice, cut once.
i cycled my tank by adding the lr (much less than 1pd/gallon), 70pds sand, and i overfed the fishless tank.
i cycled in about 4 weeks
if there is nothing in there, whats the harm of feeding your fake fish to see if you get another ammonia spike?

 

[alohami]

Well, the thing was I kind of started my cycle over once. I hope it didn't hurt anything. Here is what I did...
Originally, I put the completely uncured live rock in the tank, did not add anything else at this time. I tested my ammonia daily, but at the time I didn't realize I was doing the tests wrong (big difference between 0.1 and 1.0 of the test solution), so obviously didn't see ammonia although there probably was a good amount there. There was a lot of debris in the tank, and since I was doing the test wrong, I didn't think it would hurt anything to just started over.
So, I rinsed out the tank, started over with new RO water, added 20 lbs. of Arag-alive sand, 25 lbs. of now partially cured live rock, and a good size shrimp (in a 16 gallon). I was testing every other day with Salifert tests (and doing them correctly this time, lol), but it only showed ammonia of >.25 if that. My Nitrites and Nitrates however did spike within a few days so I figured I must have had ammonia in order to get them.
My Nitrites and Nitrates are very high, but they appeared to be coming down some (approx. 3.0 and 75 respectively) when I tested Sunday night. And being only 1 week into the cycle I wasn't concerned about them yet.
So, do you still think I'm ok or should I do I need to challenge it with more shrimp?
Sorry to be so unsure, but I just want it to be right!
Thanks!

 

[alohami]

Originally posted by COWFISHRULE
if you are doubting it, challenge it. better to measure twice, cut once.
i cycled my tank by adding the lr (much less than 1pd/gallon), 70pds sand, and i overfed the fishless tank.
i cycled in about 4 weeks
if there is nothing in there, whats the harm of feeding your fake fish to see if you get another ammonia spike?
That's kind of what I thought too. I would rather have it take longer to cycle and know I had a good one than to be praying for no ammonia every time I add something new!
Anyone agree or disagree?

 

[ophiura]

It won't hurt, IMO.
You did do A LOT of extra work.
What may have happened is that you grew enough bacteria in the original cycle to deal with ammonia...then you stopped it. In restarting it may have gone through any available ammonia quickly, but then "backed up" as nitrite bacteria then needed to increase in population.
I don't think you particularly hurt anything, but it was a lot more work than needed And adding another shrimp will give you piece of mind in addition, IMO, to not hurting anything - except potentially contributing to higher nitrates. Still I would rather have higher nitrates then find out, after adding a fish, that it wasn't fully cycled.

 

[alohami]

Yes, I kind of figured I was overdoing it with starting over, but I screwed things up so badly the first time I tried SW that I wanted everything to be perfect this time! Plus I'm a perfectionist, so that doesn't help either. I just wish I would have read the directions closer and done the ammonia test correctly from the beginning.
Oh well...live and learn.
I think I will add more shrimp, just to be on the safe side. I am tired of constantly thinking about my ammonia levels. It's just not normal to be trying to go to sleep and worrying about your fish tank!