Sick Naso Tang

[marlinman]

Newer aquarist seeking veteran advice. Semi mature naso tang has sudenly become ill. Evidenced by poor coloration and spots, lying on bottom and breathing hard. All other fish are doing very well. I checked the water using the test strips and everything appears to be spot on. 90 gallon with skimmer, etc. No problems to date. All other fish are as usual, tang is struggling. Is there a remedy that might work such as a water change? What should I look for?

Thanks in advance for reply..

 

[scsinet]

If you have pre-mixed, aged and salinity matched seawater ready to go, a change couldn't hurt. Also, discoloration is common in any tang, Naso particularly. They develop heavy white spotting and lay on the bottom at night. Heavy breathing is not good, but I have seen tangs do this for a half hour or so after eating a heavy meal.
But, to really dive in, we need lots more information.
1. Readings. Temperature, SG, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Alkalinity, pH, and if you supplement calcium, a calcium reading.
2. How long has the tank been set up? Is it a reef or FO?
3. How long have you had this fish?
4. How many gill movements/minute are you counting?
5. What fish does he share a tank with?
6. Do you have any of the following in the tank: Anenomes, Nudibranches, Sea Apples, Urchins, Boxfish, Lionfish? (any others I missed guys?) If Yes to anything here, has anything died recently, or have you been messing around in the tank with your hands lately?
7. What do you dose with?
8. How often are your water changes? How much do you change?
9. Where does your source water come from? LFS? RODI? Tap (hope not)?
10. What do you feed the tank with? Do you supplement your food with vitamins like Zoe or Selcon?
Best rule of thumb when posting about a sick fish is to post as much information as possible, whether you think it's relevant or not. Also, never say everything is "spot on," we're just gonna ask anyway...

 

[marlinman]

Learning every day what is important. I'll list what I can.
1) Huge handicap on my end. I have no experience checking for the various levels other than the test strips and I hear they are junk. But... per the strips (which have varied in the past) I am in the acceptable zone for ph, nitrates no+3, no-2 scale; alkalinity looks fine. but the water seems within range (no way to check salinity)
2) Tank has been set up for 6 months, Fish only with live rock and live sand.
3) Most fish have been in for several months and all are doing well. Tang is 8 weeks in tank but has eaten, flake, frozen, pellets, aggressively before today.
4) gill movement is rather quick. not sure on per min., but its a quick finger count, 12345, as you flip finger from fist?? sorry no help but quicker than usual for sure.
5) 3 green chromis, perc, hippo tang, longnose hawk, fox face, coral beauty, couple shrimp.royal grama. recently lost anemone ?? No conflicts have been seen.
6) fax face is new.. and it looks like it may have a film on it?? very picky observation but present
7) Dose? I have added nothing other than purple up about 2x per month. very light dosage last dose = last week
garlic from time to time..
8) 90 gallon tank. I change 15-20 gallons every 4 weeks.
9) I bought a decent size RO. I have been mixing my own fresh water and changing it out without issues thus far. def. stay on top of the changes.
10)Flakes, pellets, frozen (marine quisine and another similar with greens) garlic 4x per week. no other supps.
Good tip on the measurements, other than the color scale, I have no metrics to provide. very helpful thread for me

 

[scsinet]

1) Huge handicap on my end. I have no experience checking for the various levels other than the test strips and I hear they are junk. But... per the strips (which have varied in the past) I am in the acceptable zone for ph, nitrates no+3, no-2 scale; alkalinity looks fine. but the water seems within range (no way to check salinity)You MUST get yourself a decent test kit. Not being able to give these readings in numerical form is a huge handicap here... you're right. I recommend the Seachem Marine Basic. It has everything you need, it's easy to use, and you won't break the bank buying it... about 25 bucks online.
2) Tank has been set up for 6 months, Fish only with live rock and live sand.
Good
3) Most fish have been in for several months and all are doing well. Tang is 8 weeks in tank but has eaten, flake, frozen, pellets, aggressively before today.
Hmm... it's possible that you have a cyanided fish issue. Google "Cyanide collection" if you don't know what I'm talking about. Usually hits after 6-8 weeks, and kills very fast. In less than a day sometimes. This is unlikely though.
4) gill movement is rather quick. not sure on per min., but its a quick finger count, 12345, as you flip finger from fist?? sorry no help but quicker than usual for sure.
Too fast
5) 3 green chromis, perc, hippo tang, longnose hawk, fox face, coral beauty, couple shrimp.royal grama. recently lost anemone ?? No conflicts have been seen.
This is quite the stocking list for a 90 gallon. I'm counting 10 fish... WAYY too many. Perhaps it's lack of oxygen. This is a double edged sword. Another thing that can cause this behavior is ammonia poisoning, which could easily happen with a tank this size with this many fish and a dead anemone (more on that later). Unfortunately, if ammonia is the problem but you try to address the oxygen issue, forcing air into the water via an airstone or whatever could cause ammonia to spike and your tank to crash. Do that water change as quickly as possible. That's a good starting point. If he makes it through the night, do another water change and GET AN AMMONIA TEST KIT QUICK. Ammonia should be 0.0. Anything more is suicide, and from your stocking list, the naso is the most ammonia sensitive fish you have.
6) fax face is new.. and it looks like it may have a film on it?? very picky observation but present
Need more description to ID it as something bad, but I'd think you're okay
7) Dose? I have added nothing other than purple up about 2x per month. very light dosage last dose = last week
garlic from time to time..
Okay... You probably need to be buffering given that it's a FO system. Get that marine basic test kit and if you read below 8.3 by the end of the day just before your lights go out, add buffer to keep it peaking at 8.3
8) 90 gallon tank. I change 15-20 gallons every 4 weeks.
BIG PROBLEM HERE. For the stocking list you mentioned, this is nowhere near enough. You should be changing 10% per week... so 10 gallons per week.
9) I bought a decent size RO. I have been mixing my own fresh water and changing it out without issues thus far. def. stay on top of the changes.
How are you able to do this with no way to test specific gravity?
10)Flakes, pellets, frozen (marine quisine and another similar with greens) garlic 4x per week. no other supps.
Might behoove you to start soaking your food in Zoe or Selcon, etc occasionally
Good tip on the measurements, other than the color scale, I have no metrics to provide. very helpful thread for me
Your problem is almost definitely ammonia poisoning, IMO. You have way too many fish in this tank, you aren't changing water enough, and you aren't testing the ammonia. Lots of people don't test ammonia routinely unless there's a reason for it, but with the stocking list you have, you should be testing it. Of the fish you listed, the Naso is going to react first to this.

Change as much water as you can as soon as possible. If you have access to a water conditioner such as Prime, you can add it to the tank to knock the ammonia down instantly, but do not consider that a long term fix. If I were you, I'd reduce that fish load by at least 1/3.
Keep us posted. I'll be checking this thread tomorrow morning.

 

[marlinman]

Thanks so much for the help.I've replaced about 15 gallons thus far and will let the r.o. run overnight for more water. (I've been mixing the ro water with instant ocean) Will monitor in the am and likely change another 10g or so. If you think I should change more, feel free to share. I will depart for work with a water sample and stop in a local shop for a test on site and a kit. I'll also check on a new home for a

couple of residents. Will check on additives, etc there. I will keep you posted since you have been so helpful. thanks again.

 

[mcsd22]

Just curious but how are you mixing water with no way to check salinity?

 

[marlinman]

I have been mixing 1 cup (instant ocean) per 2 gallons in 5 gallon buckets. Using a measuring cup and mixing thoroughly. The past 5 water changes have been followed by a trip to the local shop. Every time salinity has been "very good" and they're pretty blunt. Sounds like I've been gambling every time but getting away with it..until now perhaps. I'm willing to do whatever... hard part is knowing all of this.. reading helps only so much.

 

[scsinet]

Even a cheap swing arm hydrometer is going to give better results than just eyeballing it. I submit that this should be one of the things on your purchase list today.
If you get really involved in the hobby, a refractometer would be a good purchase. If you mix your own seawater, they become indispensable.
When you mix seawater, you should let it sit overnight with a small powerhead in the bucket keeping the water moving.
Here is SCSInet's Super Duper Guide to Mixing Seawater (or SSDGMS)

Things you'll need:
1 Small Powerhead (any brand will do, maxi-jet, aqua-clear, Azoo, etc), for each bucket you plan to mix at one time. Get one rated for at least 200GPH.
1 Kitchen Scale with adjustable zero-calibration
1 Pryex measuring cup, dedicated to this purpose. I use a 2.5 cup I think.
1 5 gallon bucket, again, one for every bucket you plan to make at one time.
Salt
RODI Water
A cheap old measuring cup, 1 cup size.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I attached a picture of the salt, measuring cup, and scale that I use. It's always better to measure salt by weight, not volume. It's much more accurate. Different manufacturers mix salt in different concentrations, but here's my procedure for Kent Salt. Notice that the scale reads below 0. It's set up to read 0 with the measuring cup on it.
I run several systems at two different salinities (1.025 and 1.020).
The scale is calibrated to read 0 lbs when the empty measuring cup is sitting on it.
Use the cheap old measuring cup to scoop salt out of the bucket/bag and into the measuring cup. For me, it's always 19oz for 1.020 and 25 oz for 1.025. Never put the measuring cup into the salt and always keep the cup closed up in the bag/bucket. This prevents moisture contamination.
Place the powerhead into the bucket and hold it just below the surface while pumping water.
Pour the salt down directly into the water stream in the bucket. The powerhead will quickly scatter it into a white cloud.
Drop the powerhead completely in and let it run for at least 12 hours prior to use, unless it's an emergency. If so, 1 hour minimum.
Verify specific gravity and use.
In your case, you should start with the measuring method you've always used and note the weight and resulting specific gravity, then tweak from there. Next time, use a tad more or less salt until you get a batch exactly right, then use that weight from that point on.

 

[marlinman]

Very helpful stuff. Tang is gone, but the lesson learned is valuable. It appears as though all others may be ok. I'm heading out to the the store now with a new water sample and my goodie list. I'm going to check with them too if they can help me reduce the stock list a bit. I've always had freshwater tanks thus the overstocking here, much more flexibility and allowance in teh fresh water. My fish other fish are grateful.

 

[scsinet]

Sorry for your loss

Not surprising that he didn't make it, usually by the time labored breathing starts, it's too late.
The loss of the Naso may have brought you out of the rafters a bit as far as stocking levels are concerned. It's still high, but you may be okay.
Even if the Naso had pulled through, that's the one you would have wanted to remove anyway. Naso's get enormous and need at least 6 feet of swimming room to thrive.