skimmer in a coral only tank?

[spike_501]

will i need a protein skimmer in a coral and live rock only tank? its all set up and has been for about a month, there is an algae bloom at the moment whcih happened with my reef tank (with skimmer!) but nitrates are 50ppm at the moment but if there is not much making a mess in the tank then surely i could get away without a skimmer? what ya think?
also, why is my nitrates still quite high, i would say wiht the test i used it was just lower than 50ppm, but with nothing making a mess in the tank why are the nitrates high?

 

[acekjd83]

nitrates are the "end-product" of the nitrogen "cycle" (sort of an oxymoron, but oh well). it will continue to accumulate unless you are doing something to physically remove it from the water column. protein skimming is one way, activated carbon is another (albeit very inefficiently) and macro harvesting (plant removal).
nitrates dont just magically disappear or evaporate. they must be exported somehow. most people will recommend a combination of two or more of the above options to optimize nitrate reduction, and i myself prefer to do all three, since they each contribute a little something to the overall stability and aesthetics of the aquarium.
every heterotrophic organism (non-photosynthetic, basically) will release nitrogenous wastes in one form or another, from bacteria to elephants. corals are no exception. as i said before, unless there is some sort of nitrate export system in your tank, your fish and corals will be poisoned by their own wastes...

 

[evilbob22]

Actually there is another step that completes the cycle: another type of bacteria converts Nitrates to Nitrogen (which is completely harmless). The problem is that you will never get a large enough amount of this bacteria in an aquarium... they need anerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Some will occur in live rock and deep sand beds, but it will only slow down the build up of Nitrates, not stop it.
Getting back to the original point, the protein skimmer gets rid of "gunk" dissolved in the water, including microscopic algae and nitrates, so it is necessary in ANY salt water aquarium.

 

[acekjd83]

exactly! ive been trying to figure out a way to build up these denitrifying bacteria in my tank, but so far, they just arent able to compete with the other obligate anaerobes, since the NO3-N2 conversion is so thermodynamically unfavorable. barring any sudden breakthroughs on that front, we're left with protein skimming in conjunction with carbon or macro-harvesting...

 

[mudplayerx]

You need a skimmer in a coral tank more than you need one in a fish only tank. Although all tanks need a skimmer

 

[airforceb2]

So how long can a tank "grow" with only water, lr and ls without a skimmer? Will the nitrates overtake the tank or will it still grow as long as there is no livestock in it?

 

[mudplayerx]

I wouldn't go without a skimmer past the initial cycling. It is probably the most important part of filtration in the tank.

 

[acrylic51]

I agree with Mud!!!

 

[erik314]

Acekjd83, I have followed your posts and I am interested in your experience with anaerobic bacteria use for denitrification. I have also read some articles on use of coil filters to create an anaerobic environment. I am working on a DIY experiment by coiling airline tube inside a 2 liter coke bottle and feeding tank water through at a 1 drip per second rate. The article I read said that if you feed water through 25 feet of line at that speed, it would turn anaerobic and turn nitrate into harmless gas. Do you think this will work? Likewise can you buy a culture of the right bacteria?

 

[acekjd83]

i hadnt heard of that type of setup before, but it sounds like it could work... :thinking: the limiting factor would probably be surface area tho.... partly why i like deep sand bed.
im sort of a hands-off kind of guy, tho, since the way i see it, if bacteria have been doing their thing for billions of years, they sure dont need our help. I prefer to go low-tech (a.k.a. low money) and just let the bacs do all the work, but this does limit the number of specimens that can be kept. I have seen some people really load up on equipment to do the exact same thing that a good sand bed will do for free. :notsure:
In the end, i guess it's just a matter of opinion and funds.
o, and yes, you can buy vacuum dried bacterial cultures (if you know genus, species and, if possible, strain i.e Escerischia coli O157:H7) from any number of companies and non-profit orgs. you dont need to tho, since they come in LS and LR (thats why they're live). if you provide normal seawater conditions and keep them relatively stable, the proper bacterial equilibrium will become established all by itself. i just isolated my own bacteria for fun, since any bacteria you add will still have to compete with the established bacteria, and will most likely be decimated and become only a minor part of the normal flora of the tank.

 

[smarls]

I don;t think skimmers are always required, although they definately help.
Personally I think it depends on your bioload...if by "Coral only" you mean no fish or inverts, then the amount of amonia placed in your tank (the first part of the nitrogen cycle) will be almost zero. Without amonia your water should stay pretty pristine.
I would think that with no feeding, no fish and bi-monthly water changes, that you would be fine. I have run my tank (with corals and fish) without a skimmer for up to a month (when the skimmer was broken), and there were no ill effects.
Its all about balance...what are you putting in that can pollute the water, and then, how are you getting it out. I think with no polutants going in (no food, no fish, no phsphates, no amonia etc) then bi-monthly water changes would be enough of an export, and would also replenish the source minerals. I have no idea what the exact balance of your specific tank would be though...I think that would be trial and error.
HTH
Stewart

 

[mudplayerx]

I have to politely disagree. That can be compared to saying a swimming pool with only one kid peeing in it doesn't need chlorine
My personal opinion is no marine tank should be without a skimmer. All other means of filtration use mineralization of detritus to remove it from the water. This merely breaks down the waste into nutrients that re-enter the system and can cause problems.
Foam fractionalization, on the other hand, is the only means of filtration available to the amateur hobbyist that actually removes nutrients and contaminants from the water colum instead of processing them.

 

[smarls]

I agree with everything your are saying (particularly skimmers versus any other form of mechanical filtration) however in a coral only tank (ie no fish, no inverts etc) exactly where is the waste/detritus coming from?
Don't get me wrong, I still think a skimmer would be a good idea, but I think you could easily get by without one if there were no inputs of phosphates, amonia, etc. Reghular water changes would take care of what few wastes (if any) actually accumulated.
Actually, you could say that skimming when there is alittle to no need is actually worse for a coral only tank, in that skimming is indiferrent to what it is rmeoving...skimming takes out the good as well as the bad...
But I think the most realistic answer is it depends on the tank, and what you are doing with it.
Stewart

 

[mudplayerx]

all living organisms with a digestive system produce ammonia
Don't forget the snails, the hermit crabs, and even corals produce ammonia to my knowledge.
You are correct on one level though. I have a visi-jet skimmer and my tank is fine. Might as well have no skimmer if you have a visi-jet

 

[smarls]

I have a Prizm pro hang on...I think you may be ahead of me in skimming ability!

 

[acekjd83]

i've got a via aqua and i feel the same way

 

[acrylic51]

I agree with Mud 100% Even FO tanks will benefit from a skimmer, but a tank with corals definitely need a skimmer... I've heard of people using not filtration other than a skimmer, but like ABCDEFG is stating is only filtration is an emperor 100???? How long has the tank been up and running and what is your bio load??? Any pics??? I guarantee you won't have a 0 Nitrate level on just your Emperor for long!!!!!
Why not post the question for Kip, Squidd, or Bang if you think you don't need a skimmer??? I'm pretty sure they would get you to see the light !!!!!!

 

[acrylic51]

Originally posted by smarls
I agree with everything your are saying (particularly skimmers versus any other form of mechanical filtration) however in a coral only tank (ie no fish, no inverts etc) exactly where is the waste/detritus coming from?
Don't get me wrong, I still think a skimmer would be a good idea, but I think you could easily get by without one if there were no inputs of phosphates, amonia, etc. Reghular water changes would take care of what few wastes (if any) actually accumulated.
Actually, you could say that skimming when there is alittle to no need is actually worse for a coral only tank, in that skimming is indiferrent to what it is rmeoving...skimming takes out the good as well as the bad...
But I think the most realistic answer is it depends on the tank, and what you are doing with it.
Stewart
Have to disagree with the part about skimming when there is very little to nothing to skim is actually worse for the tank???? Wrong!!!! A skimmer will only skim or produce skimmate if proper adjusted and there is something to skim, so if there's nothing there why is it detrimental???? It's not. And trust me there aren't to many people in the hobby that can honestly say they overskim their tank.... It just doesn't happen to often. Maybe check out Detroit Tony will tell you about that in one of his threads or again so would Kip, Squidd or Bang say it's hard to overskim a tank...

 

[smarls]

Acrylic,
I think the question was if there is NO bioload, ie - a coral only tank, then is a skimmer needed? In my opinion I don't think so, particularly with regular water changes.
Obviously with a bioload, a skimmer (or some form of mechanical / biological filtration) is needed, but without a real bioload from any animals (and yes, snails etc make some bioload) what is the need for exporting nutrients that actually are never present in the system? The biological filtration should be able to handle minimal amounts of nutrients produced only by the corals. No fish, no inverts, no feeding...almost no bioload.
Also, it is fairly well established that skimmers take the good as well as the bad. Unlike what you stated in your response "wrong - A skimmer will only skim or produce skimmate if proper adjusted and there is something to skim, so if there's nothing there why is it detrimental????" (which sounds like a factual statement rather than an opinion) - skimmers take the good as well as the bad. A skimmer does not know if something is good or bad, rather it indiscriminately takes proteins etc. from the tank. Some of these items (some proteins, amino acids, rotifiers, other trace elements, etc.) are very beneficial to the tank, and the removal of these items is not ideal.
In the case of a bioload tank, the bet is that the skimmer removes more of the bad than it does the good, and the good can be replenished through water changes, supplements etc. The benefit of removing the bad (no algae build up, better water quality, etc) outweights the damage of removing the good (loss of trace items that can be good for the tank).
However, in a case where there is no bioload in a tank, and thus very few nutrients to be removed, a skimmer will be taking more of the good stuff than the bad stuff, as there is actually very little bad elements int he tank. Removing more positive elements from the water than negative elements is detrimental unless the bad stuff left creates a problem. In the event with a very low bioload, with water changes, I think the skimmer may do more harm than good, and may prove unnecassary.
Again, I think this is very tank dependent, and depends on the particular stasis of each tank, and the inhabitants of each tank. However I would be reluctant to state as a fact that a skimmer is not needed, or to state as a fact that a skimmer is needed. In my opinon, it is possible to get away without one, for the reasons I described in this thread.
Stewart

 

[acekjd83]

excellent argument smarls! :yes:
i agree that if there is "no bioload" then a protein skimmer is pointless, but.... who has a tank with no bioload? every organism (with the exception of plants) that an aquarist wants in their tank excretes ammonia, including corals, sponges, crabs, fish and starfish. even the little copepods and brine shrimp that you dont see because they only come out at night excrete ammonia. there is more bioload in your tank than you might at first think...
with this in mind, i believe that a skimmer is a very important part of a sw setup, and that going without will limit the numbers and types of animals you can keep, and create much more work and annoyance than what a low-end skimmer would cost. BUT, if you're bound and determined to go without it, then good luck, and do lots of water changes!