Skimmerless and clueless ?
- Thread starter wjwaz59
- Start date
cincyreefer
Active Member
My thinking typically goes along with what Skilos just said. Thats why I pointed out in the "skimmerless update" thread the two tanks I don't run skimmers on, and one of several reasons why. Deciding how to set up a tank all depends on what you are planning to keep. Nothing is ever impossible in this hobby, but success rates can vary greatly.
cincyreefer
Active Member
Here is a great link to an article that talks some about the reefs being nutrient poor.
http://unit.aist.go.jp/emtech/topics...-0513_sesg.htm
http://unit.aist.go.jp/emtech/topics...-0513_sesg.htm
cincyreefer
Active Member
No, you were right as well footbag. Dilution is a major difference between an ocean ecosystem and a reef aquarium.
h2oengr
Member
Originally posted by wjwaz59
. . . I use distilled water for make up and changes, and I hang filter bags with SeaChem Sea Gel in high flow in my fuge to take up PO4 and Organics.
. . . My only struggle has been keeping ALK and Ca levels up.
I am concerned my ride is going to get more bumpy as time goes on. Question is, over the long term, is it recommended to add a skimmer to my system.
No wonder you're having problems with your ALK and CA! Do you actually think the SeaChem gel and filter bags ONLY take out PO4 and organics? Is there carbon or zeolite in the filter bags? That'll take out much more than your PO4.
Again, the gas/astmosphere interchange is essential to remove dissolved organics WITHOUT the removal of other essential compounds that maintain pH and ALK.
attml
Active Member
Not to be disrespectful to anyone on this thread but IMO going skimmerless is kind of the equivalant of buying a toilet that is flushless. Eventually all of that stuff that you didn't take out over time is eventually going to overflow! It is better to skim the known harmful elements out than to attempt to go all natural just to prove a point!
Your livestock will thank you for it! It you want a good example of a nutrient poor system take a look at Steve Weast's tank. I believe he runs 3 skimmers and vacumes his sand bed!
Your livestock will thank you for it! It you want a good example of a nutrient poor system take a look at Steve Weast's tank. I believe he runs 3 skimmers and vacumes his sand bed!
neoreef
Member
Originally posted by druluv
protein strippers are too effiecient. They steralize the water by taking out the good stuff that corals need to survive. Thus causing people to overdose their tank. This is the reason why you need to be a master reefer to use systems that utilize a protein stripper. My point.
Hi Druluv,
I've never heard of a tank crashing because the water was too clean or sterile from being skimmed.
I've always had a skimmer and find that it is both painless and does not require a phD. Who's a "master reefer"? Certainly not me, although I have not yet experienced a crash.
What overdosing? Water changes and buffer/Ca additions as well as RODI top off are all the "dosing" I have heard recommended from the folks here with successful reefs that use skimmers. Requires testing and some understanding, but not out of reach for most folks. What's wrong with learning/understanding a little biology and chemistry? If you are saying that you are not interested in the science part of reef keeping then I am sorry for you. You are missing out on a fun part of the hobby.
I would be interested in knowing your sources for the stuff you are claiming.
Best of luck to you...
neoreef
Member
Originally posted by druluv
Calcium Supp:
B-ionic Calcium Buffer System - ESV - every day - 30ML of both to help Coraline production
Neilisen Reactor -PM -using EVS KALK -
Ultra life Top-off hook-up to a float switch -
dosed by aqua-medic dosing pump - Should Help precipate PO4
Phosphate Reactor - tlf - rowaphos - maxi-jet 500 pump
Calicum Reactor - PM - coming soon
Reef Advantage Calcium - twice Bi Weekly(if needed)
Reef Builder - twice bi weekly(If needed)
[/B]
Hmmm.. so you're phosphate stripping, and adding Ca and buffer, and you're doing routine water changes. Does this make you a master reefer? I don't do any more than this, probably less, since I just adjust my Ca and carbonate as needed and drip Kalk every night. And I don't have a phosphate reactor on my little 55g.
Tell me what masterfully difficult thing I am doing to enable my success despite a protein skimmer, that any newbie cannot also do?
I think you'll agree there is not too much to master here...
Calcium Supp:
B-ionic Calcium Buffer System - ESV - every day - 30ML of both to help Coraline production
Neilisen Reactor -PM -using EVS KALK -
Ultra life Top-off hook-up to a float switch -
dosed by aqua-medic dosing pump - Should Help precipate PO4
Phosphate Reactor - tlf - rowaphos - maxi-jet 500 pump
Calicum Reactor - PM - coming soon
Reef Advantage Calcium - twice Bi Weekly(if needed)
Reef Builder - twice bi weekly(If needed)
[/B]
Hmmm.. so you're phosphate stripping, and adding Ca and buffer, and you're doing routine water changes. Does this make you a master reefer? I don't do any more than this, probably less, since I just adjust my Ca and carbonate as needed and drip Kalk every night. And I don't have a phosphate reactor on my little 55g.
Tell me what masterfully difficult thing I am doing to enable my success despite a protein skimmer, that any newbie cannot also do?
I think you'll agree there is not too much to master here...
wjwaz59
Member
Originally posted by H2OENGR
No wonder you're having problems with your ALK and CA! Do you actually think the SeaChem gel and filter bags ONLY take out PO4 and organics? Is there carbon or zeolite in the filter bags? That'll take out much more than your PO4.
Again, the gas/astmosphere interchange is essential to remove dissolved organics WITHOUT the removal of other essential compounds that maintain pH and ALK.
I'm a mechanical engineer for goodness sake... Freshman Chem just about did me in... so now I am chemistry challenged. It took the 'bank account with multiple currencies" story on this board to get me through the Alk <> Ca balance chemistry. Also I'm assuming when you speak of the gas/atmosphere exchange you are talking about what occurs in skimming.
So, the Alk and Ca are absorbed by the SeaGel... I really didn't know that. Didn't say that on the bottle... ! I'll drop the SeaGel and get into a skimmer. Problems with the EuroReef though that Kip suggested. No room. Any good Hang - on options ?
steveweast
Member
There is nothing wrong with what Druluv is proposing..... it's 1980 technology that has a proven track record in being able to maintain many soft corals and some lps corals that have a tolerance to a higher dissolved organic level... but, no sps corals. The nutrient level in the ocean does vary.... being mostly affected by land run-off. The sps regions of the reefs are extremely nutrient poor where even algae has a hard time making a go of it.... our tanks have so many nutrient inputs from our relatively high bio-loads compared to the ocean that even with a high skimming capacity, we still can't reach the low nutrient levels of the open reef....but, we're getting closer, as is evident by our being able to now keep coral species that were out of our reach only a decade ago.
As for my system... I do have a refugium that is bare-bottomed with some liverock and chaetomorpha (for nutrient export harvesting). I vaccum this region frequently as it acts a sort of settlement pond for detritus. It really doesn't supply much food for the tank...the main display probably does more. I run four skimmers and add no additives, as I have a calcium reactor that I'm sure adds all kinds of trace elements from the media. I feed the fish and that's it.
It has always been my contention that we can't replicate a self contained, naturally filtered piece of the ocean... our bio-loads are just too high compared to the ocean, as is shown by every analysis that I've seen of a closed system's water... it's values are, across the board, always greatly higher than those of the open ocean. Those that have gone down this road (which was all of us in 1980), have only been rewared with modest success on certain hardy species....and certainly not with what I'm interested mostly in...sps corals
One last side note, I have several fellow reefer friends in the LA area who are fortunate enough to have access to ocean water to use in their tanks. I find it interesting that their skimmers produce next to nothing after large water changes... and then build to produce more as the days go on.
As for my system... I do have a refugium that is bare-bottomed with some liverock and chaetomorpha (for nutrient export harvesting). I vaccum this region frequently as it acts a sort of settlement pond for detritus. It really doesn't supply much food for the tank...the main display probably does more. I run four skimmers and add no additives, as I have a calcium reactor that I'm sure adds all kinds of trace elements from the media. I feed the fish and that's it.
It has always been my contention that we can't replicate a self contained, naturally filtered piece of the ocean... our bio-loads are just too high compared to the ocean, as is shown by every analysis that I've seen of a closed system's water... it's values are, across the board, always greatly higher than those of the open ocean. Those that have gone down this road (which was all of us in 1980), have only been rewared with modest success on certain hardy species....and certainly not with what I'm interested mostly in...sps corals
One last side note, I have several fellow reefer friends in the LA area who are fortunate enough to have access to ocean water to use in their tanks. I find it interesting that their skimmers produce next to nothing after large water changes... and then build to produce more as the days go on.
steveweast
Member
In conclussion... I'm trying to emulate a portion of the reef that requires a low nutrient level since I want to keep critters from that region ....and a skimmer is a tool in this endeavor. Druluv is simulating a different part of the reef..... perhaps a semi- closed lagoon... with an on-shore golf course... and as a result, there will be critters that will be suited to that environment.
steveweast
Member
Wow...a whole month. That was actual a problem we had in the early 80's. Systems with low bio-loads (ie. no fish) were having some success with species that were "hard to keep" ....like montiporas. We, then for awhile, got rid of our fish....but, that was dull.... but, then skimmers started coming out in the mid 80's and things began to change.
Druluv, not to pick on you....but, could you post a pic of a what you consider to be a successful skimmerless tank? I've never seen one that was extrordinary...and I want to know what the skimmerless crowd's "holy grail" is.
Druluv, not to pick on you....but, could you post a pic of a what you consider to be a successful skimmerless tank? I've never seen one that was extrordinary...and I want to know what the skimmerless crowd's "holy grail" is.
