so many baffles....
- Thread starter nvmycj
- Start date
reefforbrains
Active Member
Chief difference between a Refugium and a Sump is a fuge has a light and macro algae growing in it to pull bio toxins from the water. Sump normally used live rock and/or deep sand bed and no light or macro growing in it.
Some people go ape and put in 50 baffles and it looks confusing and its usually just for the hobbiest. Going beyond the basics 3,4, or even 5 chamber system is just for sake of tinkering around.
baffles just help to separate the chambers and direct flow through the different chambers instead of the flow just running across the top of evrything. They also stop the turbulence and smooth out the flow so it doesnt disturb the inhabitants or sandbeds of both.
1st chamber. Overflow chamber-this is where water dumps and then when full it flows over first baffle and into the next portion. Main purpose if to catch and slow down the waters force.
2nd chamber- Refugium- this is just an area for water to flow through that would have a light over the top and some macro algea growing in it to pull excess from the water. This flows over next set of baffles to 3rd chamber (purpose of macro algea growing is since the algea is growing and pulling the nutrients from water such as Phosphates and nitrites ect. Then you would have less algea growth in the display tank since these nutrients are no longer present in amounts needed for algea)
3rd chamber- Sump. Live rock and sometimes a deepsandbed. This is for same reason but can pull different materials and chem from the water. The breakdown and proccess of Amonia and other bio toxins that are fish wastes.
4th chamber- Some people just like to have a spot to run carbon when they want to, to put a skimmer, or otherwise little spot.
5th chamber- this is where your return pump is, this gets its own spot so it doesnt suck up any sand, algea or other critters you might have in your sump/fuge.
[hr]
Many combine the areas and change around locations of what they want to have in what order to suit thier needs but thats the whole thing in a nutshell. Min should be 3 chambers, max 5 but its generally overkill beyond 4.
Hope I have not been horribly repeatitive or gotten too long winded. People also use them for a sorta time out for the agressive crabs and hitchikers from their display tank.
Larger the sump/fuge, the more water volume in the system further dilluting your toxin and also increasing your available watertable for depleatable supplements such as Calcium, Magnesium, ect that you might need for your given tank application.
Some people go ape and put in 50 baffles and it looks confusing and its usually just for the hobbiest. Going beyond the basics 3,4, or even 5 chamber system is just for sake of tinkering around.
baffles just help to separate the chambers and direct flow through the different chambers instead of the flow just running across the top of evrything. They also stop the turbulence and smooth out the flow so it doesnt disturb the inhabitants or sandbeds of both.
1st chamber. Overflow chamber-this is where water dumps and then when full it flows over first baffle and into the next portion. Main purpose if to catch and slow down the waters force.
2nd chamber- Refugium- this is just an area for water to flow through that would have a light over the top and some macro algea growing in it to pull excess from the water. This flows over next set of baffles to 3rd chamber (purpose of macro algea growing is since the algea is growing and pulling the nutrients from water such as Phosphates and nitrites ect. Then you would have less algea growth in the display tank since these nutrients are no longer present in amounts needed for algea)
3rd chamber- Sump. Live rock and sometimes a deepsandbed. This is for same reason but can pull different materials and chem from the water. The breakdown and proccess of Amonia and other bio toxins that are fish wastes.
4th chamber- Some people just like to have a spot to run carbon when they want to, to put a skimmer, or otherwise little spot.
5th chamber- this is where your return pump is, this gets its own spot so it doesnt suck up any sand, algea or other critters you might have in your sump/fuge.
[hr]
Many combine the areas and change around locations of what they want to have in what order to suit thier needs but thats the whole thing in a nutshell. Min should be 3 chambers, max 5 but its generally overkill beyond 4.
Hope I have not been horribly repeatitive or gotten too long winded. People also use them for a sorta time out for the agressive crabs and hitchikers from their display tank.
Larger the sump/fuge, the more water volume in the system further dilluting your toxin and also increasing your available watertable for depleatable supplements such as Calcium, Magnesium, ect that you might need for your given tank application.
nvmycj
Member
ReefForBrains,
Thank you for your detailed explanation!!! But with such detail, it prompted more questions. Sorry....
How many baffles should you use to separate each section? Can I make them out of plexiglass and use some sort of epoxy to keep it in place?
Is section 1 gravity fed from your display tanks overflow box? How wide should this section be? In a three section refuge/sump, can I have my protein skipper in section 1?
Section 2 will be my refuge. In an attempt to prevent algae growth to the 1st and 3rd sections, do I need to paint the bordering baffles black to help prevent lighting up the other sections? Do I buy macro algae to put here? How does the algae stay in this section, vs being swept away? Can I put a deep sand bed here with some LR? Should this section be the largest of the three?
Section 3 will be my sump. Can I have my return pump in here? Do I run a risk of sucking up sand or algae from this section if I only have three parts of my refuge/sump?
Again,....sorry for additional questions, but I'm getting really understandable answers from this thread. PLEASE, keep them coming!
Thanks again!
Thank you for your detailed explanation!!! But with such detail, it prompted more questions. Sorry....
How many baffles should you use to separate each section? Can I make them out of plexiglass and use some sort of epoxy to keep it in place?
Is section 1 gravity fed from your display tanks overflow box? How wide should this section be? In a three section refuge/sump, can I have my protein skipper in section 1?
Section 2 will be my refuge. In an attempt to prevent algae growth to the 1st and 3rd sections, do I need to paint the bordering baffles black to help prevent lighting up the other sections? Do I buy macro algae to put here? How does the algae stay in this section, vs being swept away? Can I put a deep sand bed here with some LR? Should this section be the largest of the three?
Section 3 will be my sump. Can I have my return pump in here? Do I run a risk of sucking up sand or algae from this section if I only have three parts of my refuge/sump?
Again,....sorry for additional questions, but I'm getting really understandable answers from this thread. PLEASE, keep them coming!
Thanks again!
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Alot of people just have 3 compartment fuges, mine is.
2 baffles between the overflow compartment and the refugium, and then 2 betweeen the refugium and return compartment is generally the norm. The wider the space between each baffle, the gentler the flow will be and less bubbles will make it through. (1 1/2in to 2in in between is good) Search this site for refugium or fuge or sump and you will find countless threads on the subject. Generally though the larger the fuge compartment you can have, while still allowing room for your planned equipment, and a gentle flow through the baffles, the better.
HTH
HTH
nvmycj
Member
Thanks for replying guys....
wattsupdoc: Should space on the first baffle be off of the floor or an overflow wall? How high off the floor of the tank should it be?
hurt: I'm glad you said to put the skimmer in front of the refuge. So that would be in the first section. Other set up's show their skimmer toward the rear of the refuge. Why do you say in front?
Again, thanks for you opinions. I, and my tank, thank you.
wattsupdoc: Should space on the first baffle be off of the floor or an overflow wall? How high off the floor of the tank should it be?
hurt: I'm glad you said to put the skimmer in front of the refuge. So that would be in the first section. Other set up's show their skimmer toward the rear of the refuge. Why do you say in front?
Again, thanks for you opinions. I, and my tank, thank you.
reefforbrains
Active Member
Originally Posted by NVMYCJ
ReefForBrains,
Thank you for your detailed explanation!!! But with such detail, it prompted more questions. Sorry....
How many baffles should you use to separate each section? Can I make them out of plexiglass and use some sort of epoxy to keep it in place?
-Easier to use glass for baffles. Silicone wont stick to acrylic worth beans. Any 100% silicone avilable form Home depot or Lowes works great, but make sure there are no anti-fungal agents in the product as you dont want to introduce this into your system. Measue and just go and buy precut galss from a glass shop, its cheap.
Is section 1 gravity fed from your display tanks overflow box? How wide should this section be? In a three section refuge/sump, can I have my protein skipper in section 1?
-just make it large enough for skimmer to sit in and your fine. Larger will smoothen out the flow. The first chamber is best for your skimmer because you want to run the water through your skimmer at the most raw. IE directly from Tank.
Section 2 will be my refuge. In an attempt to prevent algae growth to the 1st and 3rd sections, do I need to paint the bordering baffles black to help prevent lighting up the other sections? Do I buy macro algae to put here? How does the algae stay in this section, vs being swept away? Can I put a deep sand bed here with some LR? Should this section be the largest of the three?
-Just purchase colored glass when making your baffles. this will help eliminate bleed over of light. Keep in mind you dont need a huge light. average fuge light is under 65 watts. A single small PC strip works great. Yes purchase or trade, or someone from the boards will send you some macro if you need it or cant find it local to you. The algea stay in this section because thats where the light is.Under the stand with rest being dark, the algea wont gorw anywhere else. The flow looks like a torrent when dumping, but when flowing across the tank it will be relativley gentle. Some folks have thier Cheato rolling with current. Keeps it in a ball form and works good to hold it together.
If you combine the sump and fuge together, then yes dump it all in together, but you run out of room for rock, when macro is there and vice versa. DSB is optional but benifitial in any chamber you put it in where the flow wont disturb it or kick up a sand storm.
Section 3 will be my sump. Can I have my return pump in here? Do I run a risk of sucking up sand or algae from this section if I only have three parts of my refuge/sump?
-yes it runs risk of picking up sand or snails ect form the sump portion. Its safest to have it alone in its chamber
Again,....sorry for additional questions, but I'm getting really understandable answers from this thread. PLEASE, keep them coming!
As for baffle height and how far apart. this is all different to each persons design. You are the master for what you think will work best.
Thanks again!
I answered in red , sorry if its confusing
ReefForBrains,
Thank you for your detailed explanation!!! But with such detail, it prompted more questions. Sorry....
How many baffles should you use to separate each section? Can I make them out of plexiglass and use some sort of epoxy to keep it in place?
-Easier to use glass for baffles. Silicone wont stick to acrylic worth beans. Any 100% silicone avilable form Home depot or Lowes works great, but make sure there are no anti-fungal agents in the product as you dont want to introduce this into your system. Measue and just go and buy precut galss from a glass shop, its cheap.
Is section 1 gravity fed from your display tanks overflow box? How wide should this section be? In a three section refuge/sump, can I have my protein skipper in section 1?
-just make it large enough for skimmer to sit in and your fine. Larger will smoothen out the flow. The first chamber is best for your skimmer because you want to run the water through your skimmer at the most raw. IE directly from Tank.
Section 2 will be my refuge. In an attempt to prevent algae growth to the 1st and 3rd sections, do I need to paint the bordering baffles black to help prevent lighting up the other sections? Do I buy macro algae to put here? How does the algae stay in this section, vs being swept away? Can I put a deep sand bed here with some LR? Should this section be the largest of the three?
-Just purchase colored glass when making your baffles. this will help eliminate bleed over of light. Keep in mind you dont need a huge light. average fuge light is under 65 watts. A single small PC strip works great. Yes purchase or trade, or someone from the boards will send you some macro if you need it or cant find it local to you. The algea stay in this section because thats where the light is.Under the stand with rest being dark, the algea wont gorw anywhere else. The flow looks like a torrent when dumping, but when flowing across the tank it will be relativley gentle. Some folks have thier Cheato rolling with current. Keeps it in a ball form and works good to hold it together.
If you combine the sump and fuge together, then yes dump it all in together, but you run out of room for rock, when macro is there and vice versa. DSB is optional but benifitial in any chamber you put it in where the flow wont disturb it or kick up a sand storm.
Section 3 will be my sump. Can I have my return pump in here? Do I run a risk of sucking up sand or algae from this section if I only have three parts of my refuge/sump?
-yes it runs risk of picking up sand or snails ect form the sump portion. Its safest to have it alone in its chamber
Again,....sorry for additional questions, but I'm getting really understandable answers from this thread. PLEASE, keep them coming!
As for baffle height and how far apart. this is all different to each persons design. You are the master for what you think will work best.
Thanks again!
I answered in red , sorry if its confusing
reefforbrains
Active Member
Variations run into the thousands on the basic design but its all about personal tastes, sizes of equipment and so on. Beware it is also very easy to drive yourself crazy with tweaking and tuning for flow design and little options like-
shelves for running carbon if you feel like it.
Gatevalves "T"'d from your return plumbed into a hidden water line for quick waterchanges. (just open the gatevalve and pour like a garden hose into your waterchange bucket.)
Good luck and hope this helps no matter what configuration you decide.
-RFB
shelves for running carbon if you feel like it.
Gatevalves "T"'d from your return plumbed into a hidden water line for quick waterchanges. (just open the gatevalve and pour like a garden hose into your waterchange bucket.)
Good luck and hope this helps no matter what configuration you decide.
-RFB
nvmycj
Member
ReefForBrains,
I've gotta admit.....you've been great in your answers. The red lettering was great!
Is Cheato a type macro algae? Any pics? What's the green bushy looking plant stuff I see in refuge pictures?
Are you supposed to keep snails and critters in your sump/refuge? Is there a way to keep the snails and other critters from climbing up and out of the baffles?
I had a PC light for my nano tank. That will probably be too strong for the refuge, eh?
Keep them answers coming..... :cheer:
I've gotta admit.....you've been great in your answers. The red lettering was great!
Is Cheato a type macro algae? Any pics? What's the green bushy looking plant stuff I see in refuge pictures?
Are you supposed to keep snails and critters in your sump/refuge? Is there a way to keep the snails and other critters from climbing up and out of the baffles?
I had a PC light for my nano tank. That will probably be too strong for the refuge, eh?
Keep them answers coming..... :cheer:
reefforbrains
Active Member
Thank you for the kind words and pleasure to meet ya.....
Cheato IS the bushy stuff you generally see. Any kind of macro will work but Cheato is the one of choice because it holds its shape pretty nice and give a good place for misc pods to grow. it is also very efficient for pulling toxin.
Snails are always a bonus because they will keep it clean underneath. They will come right to the top of the baffles but usually dont move from chamber to chamber unless the flow is crazy strong. You can cheat and just add snails that are larger than the gap between your baffles. But they dont hurt anything moving around and having full run of your underneath plumbing provided they dont get into the pumps.
Any light will really work, dont spend big money on something huge. Just any light you have handy will work provided its in the 5500-14,000 K spectrum. 10k works just fine. You dont need alot of wattage. I dont know how large yoru building but I would keep it under 65w or so.
What are your tank specs by the way we love pictures.
Cheato IS the bushy stuff you generally see. Any kind of macro will work but Cheato is the one of choice because it holds its shape pretty nice and give a good place for misc pods to grow. it is also very efficient for pulling toxin.
Snails are always a bonus because they will keep it clean underneath. They will come right to the top of the baffles but usually dont move from chamber to chamber unless the flow is crazy strong. You can cheat and just add snails that are larger than the gap between your baffles. But they dont hurt anything moving around and having full run of your underneath plumbing provided they dont get into the pumps.
Any light will really work, dont spend big money on something huge. Just any light you have handy will work provided its in the 5500-14,000 K spectrum. 10k works just fine. You dont need alot of wattage. I dont know how large yoru building but I would keep it under 65w or so.
What are your tank specs by the way we love pictures.
reefforbrains
Active Member
another note on lighting, those clip on lights from HD with the metal reflector and a spiral bulb from walmart will do fine also.
Super cheap fuge light.
fixtre from Home depot -5 bucks
Spiral Bulb from Walmart- 3 bucks
Viola!!!
Super cheap fuge light.
fixtre from Home depot -5 bucks
Spiral Bulb from Walmart- 3 bucks
Viola!!!
nvmycj
Member
Nice to meet you as well....!
Is my PC light from my nano too strong? Is there such a thing as "too strong?"
Believe it or not.....are you ready for this........I haven't got a tank yet!!!
Literally, I'm starting from the bottom up....I'm planning for my refuge, tank and stand, and then lighting. I'm planning on a corner tank but I'm unsure the inside of the stand dimensions. I'd like to have at least a 20gallon refuge, but again, measurements will determine all that. I'm also unsure of how to arrange the LR in a quarter cylinder tank. If the quarter cylinder doesn't work out, I'd very much like to get a corner hex or some sort of bowfront.
There are many choices in tanks that I'd really like to research on their pro's and con's before I get one. Because once I set it up, IT AIN'T MOVIN'!!!
I'm sooooo happy with the knowledge
I've learned with this thread. It's definitely going to make my tank run much more smoothly!
Oh, one final thing, earlier you said, "The algea stay in this section because thats where the light is.Under the stand with rest being dark, the algea wont gorw anywhere else." Is there not light in the DT for the algae to grow? Or does it seem to prefer the refuge to grow in?
Is my PC light from my nano too strong? Is there such a thing as "too strong?"
Believe it or not.....are you ready for this........I haven't got a tank yet!!!
There are many choices in tanks that I'd really like to research on their pro's and con's before I get one. Because once I set it up, IT AIN'T MOVIN'!!!
I'm sooooo happy with the knowledge
Oh, one final thing, earlier you said, "The algea stay in this section because thats where the light is.Under the stand with rest being dark, the algea wont gorw anywhere else." Is there not light in the DT for the algae to grow? Or does it seem to prefer the refuge to grow in?
reefforbrains
Active Member
Thats really the secondary purpose of the Refugium. By growing the macro algea underneath. It will be pulling any phosphate and so on that any other algea would need for food out of the water keeping a cleaner and less maint display.
So while you may get SOME algea, you should have signifigantly less algea in the display.
I like corner tanks but the footprint if goofy so you lose swimming room for larger fish if desired. My obsession is coral, not fish so tiny reef fish are fine but If you want tangs and other larger open swimmers, corners do limit your stock choices. I am not trying to sway you from your own personal tastes if you prefer corner tanks. I do like deep tanks and focus on coral so I might be a bad example. I would post a pic of mine, but dont want to jack the thread. This is about YOUR tank. Some very nice tanks here among some members and we all like different things. Poke around and look at the photo threads or search for "reef pics" and look through people tanks to see what you might want to build for yourself.
It goes back to buying things once..........
As for planning ahead, thats the best way to do it. Learn as much as you can before you wind up buying things twice or having issues that are avoidable with a little bit or reading.
Lighting, yes there is a "too much" you like meat and potatoes. I can put 30lbs of choice Ribeye on your plate every day and while granted you would eat your fill and get quite large. You can only use so much and the rest is just waste beyond reason.
Plants grow and make thier food from the light but beyond a certian point light is just wasted powerbills. If you went really crazy, like 400w on the fuge, then you would also create too much heat, and too much intensity burning the inhabitants of the fuge. But within normal applications anywhere form 18-65 watts is pretty typical and will result will good growth and happy macro life.
So while you may get SOME algea, you should have signifigantly less algea in the display.
I like corner tanks but the footprint if goofy so you lose swimming room for larger fish if desired. My obsession is coral, not fish so tiny reef fish are fine but If you want tangs and other larger open swimmers, corners do limit your stock choices. I am not trying to sway you from your own personal tastes if you prefer corner tanks. I do like deep tanks and focus on coral so I might be a bad example. I would post a pic of mine, but dont want to jack the thread. This is about YOUR tank. Some very nice tanks here among some members and we all like different things. Poke around and look at the photo threads or search for "reef pics" and look through people tanks to see what you might want to build for yourself.
It goes back to buying things once..........
As for planning ahead, thats the best way to do it. Learn as much as you can before you wind up buying things twice or having issues that are avoidable with a little bit or reading.
Lighting, yes there is a "too much" you like meat and potatoes. I can put 30lbs of choice Ribeye on your plate every day and while granted you would eat your fill and get quite large. You can only use so much and the rest is just waste beyond reason.
Plants grow and make thier food from the light but beyond a certian point light is just wasted powerbills. If you went really crazy, like 400w on the fuge, then you would also create too much heat, and too much intensity burning the inhabitants of the fuge. But within normal applications anywhere form 18-65 watts is pretty typical and will result will good growth and happy macro life.
hurt
Active Member
Originally Posted by NVMYCJ
Thanks for replying guys....
hurt: I'm glad you said to put the skimmer in front of the refuge. So that would be in the first section. Other set up's show their skimmer toward the rear of the refuge. Why do you say in front?
Any design that has the skimmer after the fuge is a bad design. It is always better to skim the water before it enters your fuge. Otherwise sediment, detritus, etc. is allowed to settle into your macro's, dsb (if you have one in your fuge), and unless you constantly clean (siphon out) your fuge you will just create a larger load on the tank. By skimming out the detritus first, you don't give it a chance to settle into your fuge/macro's and of course you deny it entry into the ammonia cycle. Many people seem to forget that a fuge(algae scrubber) and a skimmer perform completely different tasks and they do not compete with each other as many seem to think. The fuge (algae scrubber) is designed to help with the end product of the nitrogen cylce-nitrate and it's uptake along with phosphate. Skimmers on the other hand physically take out DOC's before they have a chance to enter the ammonia cycle and thus this creates an overall lower biological load on your tank. Skimmers do not take out nitrate directly, they take out the DOC's which eventually end up as nitrate.
Thanks for replying guys....
hurt: I'm glad you said to put the skimmer in front of the refuge. So that would be in the first section. Other set up's show their skimmer toward the rear of the refuge. Why do you say in front?
Any design that has the skimmer after the fuge is a bad design. It is always better to skim the water before it enters your fuge. Otherwise sediment, detritus, etc. is allowed to settle into your macro's, dsb (if you have one in your fuge), and unless you constantly clean (siphon out) your fuge you will just create a larger load on the tank. By skimming out the detritus first, you don't give it a chance to settle into your fuge/macro's and of course you deny it entry into the ammonia cycle. Many people seem to forget that a fuge(algae scrubber) and a skimmer perform completely different tasks and they do not compete with each other as many seem to think. The fuge (algae scrubber) is designed to help with the end product of the nitrogen cylce-nitrate and it's uptake along with phosphate. Skimmers on the other hand physically take out DOC's before they have a chance to enter the ammonia cycle and thus this creates an overall lower biological load on your tank. Skimmers do not take out nitrate directly, they take out the DOC's which eventually end up as nitrate.
nvmycj
Member
Thank you all for an awesome refuge/sump course. I've learned a great deal and am very excited about building one.
One last question....
When I've got my tank, fuge/sump, lights ready to go, would I fill up my DT, allow the overflow to start overflowing into the 1st chamber, then turn on my skimmer, etc. etc,....
I wouldn't turn on all my pumps unless there is water to be pumped, right?
When I do water changes, do I siphon out of the DT, or sump/refuge?
Again, thanks to all of you for sharing all your knowledge and experience with us novice folks. Take care,
Sincerely,
Matej
One last question....
When I've got my tank, fuge/sump, lights ready to go, would I fill up my DT, allow the overflow to start overflowing into the 1st chamber, then turn on my skimmer, etc. etc,....
I wouldn't turn on all my pumps unless there is water to be pumped, right?
When I do water changes, do I siphon out of the DT, or sump/refuge?
Again, thanks to all of you for sharing all your knowledge and experience with us novice folks. Take care,
Sincerely,
Matej
hurt
Active Member
First fill up your DT, then fill(meaning only to your normal operating level in your sump, not to the top of it empty)your sump with water as well. Don't turn on any pump unless there is water around them. Once there is water around your skimmer, turn it on. It will take water out of sump lowering it more. Once you have water in each tank, prime your overflow to fill it with water. Lastly, turn on your return pump and monitor it's chamber very carefully. If it starts to drain below the pump turn it off and add a bit more water. The key is putting water into all your pipes/plumbing, filters, and anything else that takes up water to really see where your normal operating level should be.
As for water changes, you can take from either your DT or sump/fuge. I usually do a little from each depending on if I need to siphon out detritus in my sump or not. Otherwise I usually take from my DT. If you can, it is better to take water from the top than the bottom of your tank.
As for water changes, you can take from either your DT or sump/fuge. I usually do a little from each depending on if I need to siphon out detritus in my sump or not. Otherwise I usually take from my DT. If you can, it is better to take water from the top than the bottom of your tank.