Sodium Cyanide

chuckcac

Member
I got to the chapter in the Conscientious Marine Aquarist on cyanide use in fish collection and it was a real eye-opener...

What is SWF.com's position on the purchase and resale of fish collected with Sodium Cyanide? :thinking:
do they purchase fish from IMA (International Marinelife Alliance) certified wholesalers? :thinking:
i know i will be making many purchases from SWF and i want to be sure i am supporting the right cause...
 

chuckcac

Member
anyone...?
after much reading on the subject of the 'destruction' of the reef systems of the world in order for us hobbyists to have SWAs...with the devistating harvesting of live rock right from the reef without a care for the sustainability of that ecosystem....just for a quick profit...
i decided that i want to make 90% my own rock... and purchase the other 10% LiveRock from a retailer that purchases from wholesalers that employ sustainable harvesting practices.
i know the 120# of rock i want in my little 55gal tank will not make all that big of a diffrence in the multi-million dollar industry... but whatever i can do to feel better about this as a hobby, I will do...
that is why i am so interested in the Sodium Cyanide collection method...
it destroys corals, kills entire reef systems, and decimates the live fish population.... AND... more than 80% of the fish collected that way, DIE before ever reaching the LFS or your aquarium... with countless specimens thereafter, dying after reaching your home....
i will not support any retailers that purchase animals that have been collected this way.... not with my money
and yes, i am willing to pay the extra money for tank-raised or net-collected specimens for my system.... i look at it as an investment in not only MY future reef tank, but an investment in all the living reef systems of the world for future generations....
sorry for the rant... i just feel rather strongly about it
:happyfish
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I agree. I am waiting to see what SWF.COMS official answer is as to whether of not they buy from places that harvest with cyanide.
***)
 

dogstar

Active Member
I think thats great....
However IME a retailer can say anything you want to here....( not saying SWF would not tell the truth )
Best to contact IMA and see what they say about how to tell.
 

chuckcac

Member
thanks reefkprz & Dogstar- it's nice to see others who feel the same...
i checked AMDA's (American Marine Dealers Association)website , and SWF is not an official member... But, there are other orginizations out ther as well, maybe they belong to one of them?

like MAC (Marine Aquarium council), or MASNA (Marine Aquarium Societies of North America), or PIJAC (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council)...for example?
 

petjunkie

Active Member
AMDA doesn't support the idea of online sales, they want everyone to go through fish stores so many online retailers are not accepted by them. Isn't there only certain areas that really allow cyanide catching nowadays? You could always stick to captive bred for some of your stock but it limits your options quite a bit.
 

chuckcac

Member
Originally Posted by petjunkie
AMDA doesn't support the idea of online sales, they want everyone to go through fish stores so many online retailers are not accepted by them. Isn't there only certain areas that really allow cyanide catching nowadays? You could always stick to captive bred for some of your stock but it limits your options quite a bit.

ive found two online retailers that support these practices... not necissarily AMDA but one of the other orginizations...

true - it is illegal in SOME parts of the philipines and SOME parts of Indonesia (indo pacific)... but not all, and it's really not as controlled as it should be...
i mean cocaine is illegal - and its still manufacuted and shipped all over the world.... legality is not the argument here....
as far as limiting my options... there are MANY LFS and other retailers that belong to these groups and support sustaining the reef systems of the world... and their options are just as bountiful as the ones that do not.... the diffrence is the cost... and that is OUR fault...

my arguement is that if we as hobbyists INSIST on only purchasing net-caught, tank raised, or sustainably harvested specimens... the supply/demand curve will eventually swing in the other direction and the industry as a whole will be forced to make a change for economic reasons despite the legallity/morality issue.
i want to do it for the morality issue...
 

dragonzim

Active Member
Hey Chuck, have you checked to see whether any of our LFS's purchase from sources that do not support cyanide catching? Just curious really, its not something that I've ever looked into.
 

saltn00b

Active Member
well one plus about reef destruction is that there is an international organization (dont know name) that puts legal limits on collections (in some areas?) so corals and fish are not taken out of the balance too much. this is why certain sites online right now have a very poor coral selection.
 

chuckcac

Member
Originally Posted by DragonZim
Hey Chuck, have you checked to see whether any of our LFS's purchase from sources that do not support cyanide catching? Just curious really, its not something that I've ever looked into.
next time i visit them (any of them) i intend to ask...
i did find one really nice online site in particular that does support captive bred and sustainably harvested species... and they have a really huge selection...
ill e-mail it to ya
 

snapperboy

Member
I would like to know more about these issues as well. I am going to look some of this stuff up for info. as i want to create my own rock or use a lot of base rock in a large aquarium my family is designing.
Unfortunately, IF this site does use Sodium Cyanide you wont hear about it here. The mods delete even the tinyiest of complaints or anything said negative about this company, which they have the right to do. I'd hope that they don't and will wait to see if anything turns up from this thread, but its also because of this same hope we may not get the answer we don't want to hear.
 

chuckcac

Member
Originally Posted by saltn00b
well one plus about reef destruction is that there is an international organization (dont know name) that puts legal limits on collections (in some areas?) so corals and fish are not taken out of the balance too much. this is why certain sites online right now have a very poor coral selection.
true - Hawaii is one country that does that.
i think India and Sri Lanka too (i think i read that somewhere)
 

chuckcac

Member

Originally Posted by snapperboy
I would like to know more about these issues as well. I am going to look some of this stuff up for info. as i want to create my own rock or use a lot of base rock in a large aquarium my family is designing.
Unfortunately, IF this site does use Sodium Cyanide you wont hear about it here. The mods delete even the tinyiest of complaints or anything said negative about this company, which they have the right to do. I'd hope that they don't and will wait to see if anything turns up from this thread, but its also because of this same hope we may not get the answer we don't want to hear.

I hear ya... in no way, shape, or form do i hope to bash SWF.com.... as far as i'm concerned they rock... prices, selection, customer service etc... all awesome...
i just hope that if
they do purchase from those types of wholesalers that they consider changing their minds... or
even offering the option to purchase tank-bread or sust. harvested specimens to those who would be interested in buying them... like me

i want
to shop here... i want
to support the company that gives us this forum... but more importantly i need
to do what i can to support the life in the sea...
 

theappe

Member

Originally Posted by chuckcac
I hear ya... in no way, shape, or form do i hope to bash SWF.com.... as far as i'm concerned they rock... prices, selection, customer service etc... all awesome...
i just hope that if
they do purchase from those types of wholesalers that they consider changing their minds... or
even offering the option to purchase tank-bread or sust. harvested specimens to those who would be interested in buying them... like me

i want
to shop here... i want
to support the company that gives us this forum... but more importantly i need
to do what i can to support the life in the sea...

very well said!
 

scsinet

Active Member
Any retailer, be it local or online that makes any sort of conclusive statement that they don't do it should be viewed with skepticism.
I'm certainly not saying that all retailers do it, but more to the point they don't have any control over it. You often get lied to because in the eyes of an aquarist who just learned of the practice, to hear a store say they have no way to know is just like hearing... "yah, in fact I have some cyanide under the counter here!"
When you consider the way fish are collected and imported, the fish change hands so many times that it's nearly impossible to guarantee that on the part of any dealer who sells fish from the areas plauged by the problem. Ultimately, it's the locals that do the actual collecting that use the cyanide, and usually by the time the fish has made it to the actual importer, he has no way of knowing. There are organizations as mentioned that strive to prevent buying from those who use it, but again, it's difficult to prove it because it's usually done by sole discretion of the collectors, and often not the knowledge of their employers. These guys are paid by the number of fish collected, and they don't exactly have a great deal of honesty in often impoverished nations when it comes down to putting food on the table. You'd be surprised how little the actual collector gets for bringing in a $100 Naso, etc. Each time the fish changes hands, the price goes up. You are paying everyone down the line when you buy the fish for the last time.
The Phillipines and Fiji are the two areas where cyanide is employed most heavily. The three areas where it is almost never used is Hawaii, Florida, and the Red Sea. Any fish imported from the Phillipines and Fiji are highly suspect to being cyanided, but certain fish more than others. The two types of fish most often caught using this method are Butterflies and large Angels. Other fish, such as clowns, damsels, gobies, blennies, lions, etc are almost never caught this way. Sodium Cyanide is expensive, and the collectors will only use it on fish that are hard to catch any other way.
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to prove it was cyanide that did your fish in, and often it takes a month or more for the fish to die, past any guarantees or recourse you are going to get from any retailer. Heck, it's not even guaranteed that a fish caught this way will die at all.
I have purchased many fish from this site that are heavily suspect (due to what species and what area they are from). I have only had one die that I am pretty sure was due to cyanide. Most of the fish from this site do well and thrive.
At the end of the day if you are in the hobby long enough you will encounter losses due to it. It's more or less leakage that you need to suck up, and fight by increasing awareness and do what you can to deny businesses that in one way or another willfully
engage with people known
to do it.
 

autofreak44

Active Member
wow thats an eye opener...
is there any shure way to tell that a fish has been caught with this stuff? i certainly am going to ask my lfs about it, but as scsinet said, they would probably lie anyway.
 
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