Soldier Suicides

hlcroghan

Active Member
I am sure you are right in many cases. The friend of mine who killed himself while he was guarding his gate should never have been in. He couldn't handle the ridicule from his higher ups (he was pretty out of shape and a little heavy) and he couldn't handle being away from his family. And he finally just went nuts. They do not let you go though. You have to do something drastic to get out of it because you signed the contract. The only ones I know of who get out of basic training are those who put themselves or others in danger or who get too hurt and injured to continue even after they heal. If you had your choice almost everyone would choose to leave at some point. Heck, I would've left a couple different times I think. It's been a while now but I remember being pretty miserable for the first month and a half or so. It is definitely not what you see in the commercials.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2747446
I'm curious never done any research but what are military suicide numbers vs suicide numbers of non-military personel?
Gosh I don't know where you would find that statistic. I was an MP when I was in. I was in Camp Pendleton for the majority of my contract. That base is huge. We had just as much crime per capita as any other major city. There was a larger percentage of domestic violence and suicide threats than a regular city though. Directly due to stress and loss of family continuity. That was back in 2001 right before 9/11 when my staff sergeant told me that though. I am not sure how it is now.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2747381
I think that I am going to let this post go. This is a passionate subject for me and one that you probably can't appreciate unless you have lived through it and been involved in it, just like anything else. Everyone has differing opinions and I am letting myself get too worked up over this when I could be doing more to support the friend I have still over there with emails and letters. To all of you who supported what I had to say, thank you. To those that didnt understand, I sincerely hope that you never have to experience the government's lack of care for the people and the families who fight for the freedoms you enjoy.
Well all I can say is based on my son's current experience it appears that you and he are living in different worlds. Certain devisions must do a lot better job than others.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2747446
I'm curious never done any research but what are military suicide numbers vs suicide numbers of non-military personel?
This isn't the first time this topic has been brought up on this board. As I remember the other thread had some links to more detailed info but a quick search turned this up
If the overall numbers continue through December as they have been, Stephens said, they would eclipse the 115 of 2007, 102 in 2006, 87 in 2005 and 67 in 2004.
The rate per 100,000 soldiers also has been rising and could be surpassed. It was 18.1 per 100,000 last year _ the highest since the Army started keeping record in 1980. That compared to a rate of 17.5 in 2006 and 9.8 in 2002 _ the first full year after the start of the war in Afghanistan.
The rate for 2008 has not been calculated, officials said, but if the trend holds, it would surpass the demographically adjusted rate of 19.5 per 100,00 for the civilian population, Stephens said.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said the suicide rate for U.S. society overall was about 11 per 100,000 in 2004, the latest year for which the agency has figures. But the Army says that when civilian rates are adjusted to cover the same age and gender mix that exists in the Army _ a younger and largely male population _ the civilian rate is more like 19.5 per 100,000.
The Army has come under unprecedented stress as the main force in the two largely ground wars.
The Marine Corps, the second biggest force in Iraq _ and even younger and more male than the Army _ had a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 in 1007, the last year readily available. The Air Force and Navy had rates of a little over 10 per 100,000, according to defense records.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2747480
The rate per 100,000 soldiers also has been rising and could be surpassed. It was 18.1 per 100,000 last year _ the highest since the Army started keeping record in 1980. That compared to a rate of 17.5 in 2006 and 9.8 in 2002 _ the first full year after the start of the war in Afghanistan.
The rate for 2008 has not been calculated, officials said, but if the trend holds, it would surpass the demographically adjusted rate of 19.5 per 100,00 for the civilian population, Stephens said.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said the suicide rate for U.S. society overall was about 11 per 100,000 in 2004, the latest year for which the agency has figures. But the Army says that when civilian rates are adjusted to cover the same age and gender mix that exists in the Army _ a younger and largely male population _ the civilian rate is more like 19.5 per 100,000.
The Army has come under unprecedented stress as the main force in the two largely ground wars.
The Marine Corps, the second biggest force in Iraq _ and even younger and more male than the Army _ had a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 in 2007, the last year readily available. The Air Force and Navy had rates of a little over 10 per 100,000, according to defense records.
So this is just the army other branches have significantly lower numbers, and it is still lower than the same civilian demographic. You could almost say joining the military particularly the navy and air force lowers the likelyhood of suicide...
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2747472
Well all I can say is based on my son's current experience it appears that you and he are living in different worlds. Certain devisions must do a lot better job than others.
For sure, everyone had different experiences. I have friends that feel okay about how everything is going. Just like in the thread there are people that agree and disagree. Most people who are single and no child or spouse to consider seem to do better, at least to what I have noticed. Maybe because they don't worry about anyone but themselves during combat? I am not sure. It is a problem though. I definitely wouldn't say that joining the military lowers your chances of suicide but joining different branches can and does. The air force's quality of living is the highest. They have access to more communication with their families and generally have shorter deployments than the Marines and Army. They also have better living conditions. They had air conditioning and solid building months before the Marines for example. That makes for less stress and unhappiness for sure.
 

reefraff

Active Member
I gotta agree with the having a plan. You enlist knowing what your decision leads to. Civilians have to factor in their careers when planning a family.
Found this about duel parent deployments
Robert and Katrina Elbert each had passed the 10-year mark as soldiers when they tied the knot.
“Neither one of us thought about getting out because of the time we already had invested,” Robert Elbert said.
Deployments never posed a particular problem because they usually traveled at different times — until they landed together in 11th Aviation. Now that they work in the same company, they often go away together.
They keep a constantly updated family-care plan, which the Army requires for soldiers with families. “We’ve always had someone who could take care of [our son],” Katrina Elbert said.
Maj. Scott Bemis, the regiment’s personnel officer, said a unit cannot afford to leave one parent behind when it deploys because often the soldier is critical to the mission. He said it is a commander’s responsibility to make sure family-care plans are in order so a soldier’s children can be cared for even on short notice.
“A soldier who doesn’t have a family-care plan can be chaptered out of the Army,” Bemis said. “But that doesn’t help the unit much, because it still loses the soldier’s services.”

For the Elberts, leaving their son for an uncertain deployment certainly hurt. When Katrina Elbert’s parents, Walter and Dorothy Jones, flew to Germany on short notice to pick up the younger Robert, it was inconvenient and expensive, but they were grateful.
“They thanked us for giving them the opportunity to take care of our son,” Katrina Elbert said. “We said, ‘No, thank you!’”
But the Elberts know they owed something to the Army, too.
“It’s true, we miss our son. But we have a job to do,” Katrina Elbert said.
“In the civilian sector you may have a job, and you have to go on a business trip. Well, this is our business trip.”
Of course, most civilian business trips don’t last six months, and they don’t involve armed hostilities. Even though the Elberts know this conflict could put them in harm’s way, their religious faith makes them believe their son will not be left an orphan.
“We’re not afraid,” Katrina Elbert said. “We know the Lord is going to bring us home safely.”
They have decided they won’t work in the same unit again. The difficulty of preparing together for deployments, and then leaving their son behind, is something they don’t want to repeat.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2747506
For sure, everyone had different experiences. I have friends that feel okay about how everything is going. Just like in the thread there are people that agree and disagree. Most people who are single and no child or spouse to consider seem to do better, at least to what I have noticed. Maybe because they don't worry about anyone but themselves during combat? I am not sure. It is a problem though. I definitely wouldn't say that joining the military lowers your chances of suicide but joining different branches can and does. The air force's quality of living is the highest. They have access to more communication with their families and generally have shorter deployments than the Marines and Army. They also have better living conditions. They had air conditioning and solid building months before the Marines for example. That makes for less stress and unhappiness for sure.
I would have figured the Navy had the best living. My Nephew was on the Lincoln, he had nice conditions there.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Some of the Navy do have great conditions. Heck, some of the Marines live pretty good depending on where they are.
 
It sounds like someone has had alot of issues and rather than looking in the mirror, the need to find someone else to blame is necessary. Take responsibility for the actions/decisions you have chosen.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by jellyman1213
http:///forum/post/2747606
It sounds like someone has had alot of issues and rather than looking in the mirror, the need to find someone else to blame is necessary. Take responsibility for the actions/decisions you have chosen.
I am not saying that the military caused any of my problems other than having a direct effect on my divorce. I chose to go in, that was my decision and some good came out of it for me personally. Some of the stories I have explained are simply to give examples of what I am talking about. I am saying some of the issues that are doing now are preventable and it is shameful the way the government is using our military. I don't have any issues with the people serving. You are really getting the wrong message from my responses. I am saying that they could reduce some of the problems easily and they don't want to.
The point of this entire thread was the suicide rate is going up as well as divorce and casualty rates in the military. These are the people that are fighting the war our government has deemed necessary. Don't you think it is in our best interests to make sure they are taken care of as well as possible? Or do you think just because they signed up, Oh well, forget them, they are just here to take care of me and my problems? So what if they lose their health, family, and the VA needs to treat them for years after their experience. There are some VERY SIMPLE things that the military and government can do to improve those problems but they don't.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2747613
I am saying that they could reduce some of the problems easily and they don't want to.
Well they can't make it too cooshy. The whole point of bootcamp and all the training is to prepare you for war... And war is not a nice place.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
I agree there are things they could do to make it a lot better. But most of those things were just as bad prior to the war, atleast in my experience.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2747624
Well they can't make it too cooshy. The whole point of bootcamp and all the training is to prepare you for war... And war is not a nice place.
The problem with bootcamp is that you think 'This is as bad as it will get...' and then you realize it was a tea party. In my opinion (as if it matters) if bootcamp is the hardest thing people do in the military they got of easy.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
http:///forum/post/2747634
The problem with bootcamp is that you think 'This is as bad as it will get...' and then you realize it was a tea party. In my opinion (as if it matters) if bootcamp is the hardest thing people do in the military they got of easy.
You are right about that for sure. Just working day to day, especially after 9/11 was WAY harder than bootcamp. Even that wasn't that difficult. Actually going to war isn't really that hard. Pretty much they exercise and sit around and wait alot. It is just being under constant stress puts a serious wear on a person's psyche. It changes them alot. Add to that if you have any deaths around you. Worrying about you kids and if your spouse is being faithful or if they will be there when you get back.........things like that is what causes the problem. And the longer it goes on, the worse probleme the person tends to have. Not everyone is affected badly though. I have a good friend who has been several times and it never fazes him in the least. Who knows why some are good and others not?
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
http:///forum/post/2747634
The problem with bootcamp is that you think 'This is as bad as it will get...' and then you realize it was a tea party. In my opinion (as if it matters) if bootcamp is the hardest thing people do in the military they got of easy.
I'm not in, I have A LOT of family that is. One is special forces RECON. What blows me away there is some training he has done, where he had to sign a release incase he died as well as a non-disclosure so people wouldn't be ticked off at what he went through. But that is the extreme. And I agree if bootcamp sucked the worst then I'm glad for you.
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2747655
I'm not in, I have A LOT of family that is. One is special forces RECON. What blows me away there is some training he has done, where he had to sign a release incase he died as well as a non-disclosure so people wouldn't be ticked off at what he went through. But that is the extreme. And I agree if bootcamp sucked the worst then I'm glad for you.
That is one of my points. He is making a choice by doing that, yes. But does that mean that he shouldn't be entitled to be able to see his family or receive good care for any type of health problem whether it be mental or physical? No it doesn't. I feel the same for the regular people that aren't in any special forces. There should be a limit on how many deployments they can go on. One of the parents should be allowed to say back while the other one goes to war. The other one can always go afterward. There should be a time limit on the length of the deployment for the health and sake of that person who serves and their family.
 

jerthunter

Active Member
Things could be a lot better, thats for sure. But I still don't think that a huge amount of blame can be placed on the war. Most of the problems have been around for a very long time, the war might increase some of the effects but its not the root cause.
I have long stated what I believe the root cause is. Reenlistment bonuses...
They get offered a good chunk of money to sign a paper, often while they still had several years on their initial enlistment. Then they spend the money before they even start their extention and the cycle continues.
Of course some of the blame has to be placed on the people doing this, but a lot of the people in the military come right out of highschool and don't have a lot of sense when it comes to handling a lump sum of money.
 

michaeltx

Moderator
Here is my problem and IMO a partial reason for the problem
1) a 17 year old can enlist with the parents permission
2) The make it sound like its more than what it really is as far as pay and other incentives.
3) Tell someone struggling with money to go to college that you will qualify for X amount for school
4)sending KIDS with guns over to war zones straight out of basic and high school. * When I was in was during the first gulf war and was enticed by the money and sign on bonuses If I didnt go split option and had another year in school I would have graduated basic got on a plane and headed to iraq that night!!! This to me is wrong asking a 18 year old that cant even by alcohol yet to carry a gun and take other peoples life and deal with the looming and pending death of themselve that could happen. There isnt to many younger kids around that age that can handle pressure that regular old life throws at them and now they are in a WAR zone dealing with all of that plus normal stuff. Way to much for most kids to deal with.
JMO though
Mike
 

hlcroghan

Active Member
Originally Posted by MichaelTX
http:///forum/post/2747688
Here is my problem and IMO a partial reason for the problem
1) a 17 year old can enlist with the parents permission
2) The make it sound like its more than what it really is as far as pay and other incentives.
3) Tell someone struggling with money to go to college that you will qualify for X amount for school
4)sending KIDS with guns over to war zones straight out of basic and high school. * When I was in was during the first gulf war and was enticed by the money and sign on bonuses If I didnt go split option and had another year in school I would have graduated basic got on a plane and headed to iraq that night!!! This to me is wrong asking a 18 year old that cant even by alcohol yet to carry a gun and take other peoples life and deal with the looming and pending death of themselve that could happen. There isnt to many younger kids around that age that can handle pressure that regular old life throws at them and now they are in a WAR zone dealing with all of that plus normal stuff. Way to much for most kids to deal with.
JMO though
Mike
Totally agree. This is something I have always thought was wrong. On the enlistment bonuses though. Alot of people wouldn't re-up if they didn't have that incentive. Basically, it's the attitude of "I could die, what are you going to give me to bribe me to stay?"
I agree that it is a lot of money and people don't use it wisely. My friend that is deployed got 11,000 to re-up for his last 4 years of his career. He will be able to retire in 2 more years if he makes it out of Iraq alive. He has already been in the burn ward and is taking depression medication to maintain himself.
Ay ay ay.............it makes me tired to think about it.
 
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