Some Products and Advice for New Salt Hobbyist

[jason490]

Hey Everyone,
Well I have been in the fish game for many many years, but saltwater was always a thorn in my side. Well thankfully, technology has come a long way in recent years. I posted for the first time about losing all my fish in a brand new tank, my water was perfect. Come to find out, the LFS store lost the whole shipment, so I do not know if it was my freshly started tank, or the guys fish. Either way, here are some suggestions. I know I will get flamed on this , but it has worked for me.
1) Don't add too much at one time, lesson 1 that I learned.
2) Cycling a tank does NOT take 4-6 weeks unless you do it the old fashioned way. Get yourself 100% live sand and quite a few live rock, then use this stuff Please do not post products or links It literally does what it says, it did for me. Still after it is cycled, only put a couple of clowns or something in and give it a week or so.
3) I had ich for the first time from the LFS store's fish they sold me. One died and I noticed the other one had it. So last night I went out to PetSmart and found something that is safe for Coral and Inverts called "Ich Attack". It is 100% natural and everyone on this board seems to think it's a hoax. Well the fish that I have was eat up with ich. I put the dose in last night, woke up this morning and the fish had no ich. Is the ich gone? probably not, that is why I will continue to treat for a few days, but regardless, great great stuff.
4) Anenomes and live rock do not need a 1000.00 lighting system unless you have a 100% reef tank. I have a few anenomes, zoos, etc. and I put in the 15000 CoralLife bulb, everything is doing fine, all for 16 bucks in the normal strip.
5) Overcrowding. Yes this is extremely possible, especially at startup. But in my 30 gallon, I cannot see having 2 fish for the duration. Granted I won't have 10, but it is small thinking to think that is all you can have. I would say probably 5 at the most (small fish) and you will be fine. Some people think you have to have some 500 gallon tank to have a tang or something. I have no tangs in my 30, but they are fine in a 55, one granted.
6) There are some very knowledgeable people on this board, but then again there are some that have no clue what they are talking about. The ones who do are few and far between. I mean no offense to anyone with that statement, but some are older and set in their ways about how things were done 30 years ago. Things change and time changes. When in doubt do some research and study for yourself.
Jason

 

[hot883]

You are right jason. Not everyone will agree with your findings. In fact I agree with #1 ONLY.
#2- No added ingredient will help cycle along.
#3 Copper or Hyposalinity is the ONLY mwans to rid the fish of ICH. A fish fallow tank 5-6 weeks is only method to rid tank of ICH if it is a reef and cannot treat that tank.
#4 Anemones need strong lighting. Normal strip lighting will NOT do.
#5 Tangs are NOT fine in a 55. Might live for a month or two but not for the duration of their life.
#6 I am not old and stuck in my ways. If new technology comes along that helps the hobbiest so be it.
My responses are NOT up for debate. Just stating what I believe. Barry

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by jason490
6) There are some very knowledgeable people on this board, but then again there are some that have no clue what they are talking about. The ones who do are few and far between. I mean no offense to anyone with that statement, but some are older and set in their ways about how things were done 30 years ago. Things change and time changes. When in doubt do some research and study for yourself.
Jason
Hey Jason, I'm not exactly set in my ways but I am certainly resistant to change.
No offense but in 5 or 6 years if you still have all of the Anemone and fish that are in your tank right now then I'll sit up and listen. Until then, I think it's a bad idea to put down the old time ways that have proven to work time & time again.
I'm not offended by your post at all but it seems a little comical that you've already killed a fish doing it your way and at the same time you're bashing the old way of doing things.
Best of luck!

 

[smork81]

I believe that you CAN keep a tang in a 55 for more than a month or two. Ive had mine in for over a year and NO problems not even ich. I DO have power compacts and a seperate actinic on my tank for the time being till my other lights get here. With that said my anemones are doing GREAT. They even are getting their color back from being bleached at the LFS...one has turned a beautifull green color and the other is tan/brown...thats a long way to go from CLEAR when i first got them...This is just my experience and 2cents.
Jason490....Good post...I agree with ya

 

[acrylic51]

I thought about posting to this thread before anyone had and thought I'd hold my tongue due to I can come off rather harsh at times...... :thinking: but this is why at times I do.......I agree with Hot883 that the only true or correct statement made is "not to add to much at one time"......
There isn't any miracle cure or fix in a bottle to cycle a tank or to get rid of ick.....And as Bang pointed out why try to reinvent the wheel when it already works.....There as so many "old school" ways or methods that just work and there's no way around it, and cycling and ich are 2 of them......
Whatever works for you great, but as summed up again by Bang post years from now and tell and show us how things are doing, your way.........

 

[lazuruskfp]

I don't necessarily agree with everything in this post, but I will say this...
I have been comming here for advice for about 10 months now... started an account a couple months after I started researching so about 1 1/2 years all together. I can say while every piece of advice here isn't steadfast and unbreakable when it comes to success in the home aquarium... it is better to go by the tried and true methods most of the time.
That is not saying that you wont get lucky with some of your particular fish and have a tang that goes a lifetime in a 75g or smaller tank without causing a fuss... but chances are its lifespan won't be up to par with that same fish placed in a 150+ gallon tank that has an easier time holding parameters and giving larger swim/grazing space. Also I'm not saying that a particular coral in your possession won't due fine under lower light conditions contrary to what experienced aquarist tell you. Again no two fish/corals are exactly alike I have had 2 tanks now a nano and my 29g and have NEVER lost a fish and I credit this to simple patience and decision making based on info from experience and knowledge of my tanks own particular eco system.
Again the advice given here is based on what is known for MOST of the species of coral/fish that is being asked about. Not how one particular fish/coral reacted in one aquarists tank. Dosn't make it right or wrong... just info do with it what you will
BTW congratz on some good picks sounds like you got some resiliant and hardy species in your tanks!

 

[shogun323]

Wow this is quite a bold post. I read through your points and one thing stuck out in my mind. Success in this hobby is measured in time. Anemones surviving for 8 months under power compact lighting isn't success. Ich falling off of a fish isn't success either. Ich is a parasite with many stages. True success defeating ich is eliminating it completely from your system without reinfections. The success rate on the reef safe ich meds seems dismal at best.
I do agree with you that there are definately people here that don't know what they are talking about. Hopefully people realize that post count doesn't by any means correlate with knowledge and wisdom. Good Luck in your endevours!!
~Wade

 

[reefkprz]

1 I agree with
2 cycleing never actually ends it just balances, there is no way to finish a cycle. except to tear down the tank.
3 not even going near this one.
4 of course rock doesnt need light the algaes on it do, anemones do need high light, reg output flourescents are just a slow way to kill them.
5 different fish require different spaces tangs need swimming room a 55 does not provide ample swimming space for a fully grown tang, you could live in a closet without dying but arent you happier in a 12x12 bedroom?
6 there are many very knowledgable people on this board a short list follows
BangGuy
hott883
Beth
Ophuria
SCInet
Squidd
MichaelTX
murph145
Lion_Crazz
Viper930
SaltNoob
and a ton more that I cant think of off the top of my head (dont be insulted if your name isnt on the list I just cut it short instead of listing a hundred people)
many of these people have differing opinions on things some know more about ceartain subjects than others, heck I disagree with almost everyone on that list at one point or another, and as far as I have always believed even a misinformed statement can lead to a deeper understanding of the truth by talking it out so the people who have no clue what they are talking about actually lead to a better understanding so in the end everyones contributions are important even if its to allow themselves to be corrected.

 

[azfishgal]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
many of these people have differing opinions on things some know more about ceartain subjects than others, heck I disagree with almost everyone on that list at one point or another, and as far as I have always believed even a misinformed statement can lead to a deeper understanding of the truth by talking it out so the people who have no clue what they are talking about actually lead to a better understanding so in the end everyones contributions are important even if its to allow themselves to be corrected.
Well said!

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jason490
...
1) Don't add too much at one time, lesson 1 that I learned.
2) Cycling a tank does NOT take 4-6 weeks unless you do it the old fashioned way. Get yourself 100% live sand and quite a few live rock, then use this stuff Please do not post products or links It literally does what it says, it did for me. Still after it is cycled, only put a couple of clowns or something in and give it a week or so.
3) I had ich for the first time from the LFS store's fish they sold me. One died and I noticed the other one had it. So last night I went out to PetSmart and found something that is safe for Coral and Inverts called "Ich Attack". It is 100% natural and everyone on this board seems to think it's a hoax. Well the fish that I have was eat up with ich. I put the dose in last night, woke up this morning and the fish had no ich. Is the ich gone? probably not, that is why I will continue to treat for a few days, but regardless, great great stuff.
4) Anenomes and live rock do not need a 1000.00 lighting system unless you have a 100% reef tank. I have a few anenomes, zoos, etc. and I put in the 15000 CoralLife bulb, everything is doing fine, all for 16 bucks in the normal strip.
5) Overcrowding. Yes this is extremely possible, especially at startup. But in my 30 gallon, I cannot see having 2 fish for the duration. Granted I won't have 10, but it is small thinking to think that is all you can have. I would say probably 5 at the most (small fish) and you will be fine. Some people think you have to have some 500 gallon tank to have a tang or something. I have no tangs in my 30, but they are fine in a 55, one granted.
6) There are some very knowledgeable people on this board, but then again there are some that have no clue what they are talking about. The ones who do are few and far between. I mean no offense to anyone with that statement, but some are older and set in their ways about how things were done 30 years ago. Things change and time changes. When in doubt do some research and study for yourself.
Jason
1. 100% true
2. True to a point. If you use good, true live sand and fully cured live rock with minimal air exposure you will have a short cycle. This is due to there already being bacteria present, however. Not any kind of miracle powdered bacteria. As someone suggested, a "cycle" is a process where bacteria comes into balance with the Nitrogen cycle in your tank. This balance is in constant flux.
3. Ich meds may temporarily seem to work. If your tank remains ich free for the next 5 years then let's re-evaluate the medicine you describe. My tank is ich free. Always has been, always will be. No meds, just proper QT procedures...
4. This statement confuses me. a 100% reef tank needs expensive lighting but anemones don't? If I am understanding that statement correctly then it is incorrect. Anemones are among the most light dependent inverts. They can go for an extended period of time with low light (when I moved my tank my BTA crawled into a cave and stayed for over a month. It eventually crawled out, completely bleached. It has now recovered under intense lighting..) but eventually an anemone with sub-par lighting will starve.
5. What are you basing your overcrowding theory on? Many, many experts say Tangs need 6 foot tanks. You say a 55 is fine. Based on what? Many SWF are territorial. They need their own space. That's where overcrowding comes into play.
6. You are incorrect in your evaluation of the "old" ways. 30 years ago tanks were quite different than they are today. We've learned a lot about fish needs, habitats, and success rates. In many ways the ideas you have expressed here fall into the "old" ideas. 30 years ago success was measured in keeping a fish for a couple of months, lighting was inferior, and fish were crowded together with no study of proper habitat.

 

[jason490]

Good points from all of you and I am glad you like the way you do things, to each his own.
I kept freshwater tanks for years upon years and never lost a fish. Everyone used to tell me "you need to let that tank cycle". You know what, I bought a tank, took it home, put the water and chlorine killer in it, added fish, bam everything lived for the duration.
I know the saltwater cycle is different, but I had a yellow tang for 4 years in a 55g tank and never had one problem with him. Sure if you put a 10 inch tang or something in one, then yea that is way to small. But lets get real, most tangs are of the 2-4 inch variety and will stay that way for some time.
Well my private messaging is turned off, my email on the board is turned off, not sure if this is everyones case. Also the link I posted to a product that I have absolutely nothing to do with was removed. What's the matter? You scared it actually works?
I see links posted here all the time. I do not however judge SWF.com for the tards on this board. I continue to buy from them and always will.
Smork81, you continue to enjoy that tang. What people here don't understand is that fish was originally in the ocean or meant to be. Unless they can provide a million gallon tank, he is a fish for your enjoyment.

 

[scsinet]

The point you have failed to address is that success in the generality of the hobby is not measured by the success of one person, yet instead you've chosen to come onto this board and pass judgement on the knowledge of everyone here by saying we don't know what we are talking about, at the same time implying that you do, based on a very short run of success.
TIME is the measurement of success, but you said it yourself, you may have been in the game a long time but saltwater has always been a thorn in your side until recently. Having a run of success/good luck/whatever then turning around and touting your ways as "better" in comparison to those who have enough knowledge and experience to turn out all of our lights is going to get you... yes... flamed.
To say that the people stuck in their ways are wrong for only that sake then to turn around and say you are right only because you are doing something that bucks the paradigm is hypocritical.
You do something once, a change occurs, and suddenly you proclaim that because you had success once that every one of us who steers away is "stuck in their ways." If you had actually seen how many reef systems have been wiped out by an attempt to cure ich for 6 bucks, you'd stay away too.
I haven't been on this board as long as some people, but I can tell you that this is one of the most well mannered group of people out of all the forums I am a member of. There are the exceptions to this, but overall, when someone disagrees and they back it up with credible evididence and/or research to support that fact, a lively and educational debate ensues, not a flaming war, but you are not exactly starting things off on the right foot when you jump on here and say, in so many words that "most of us have no idea what we are talking about." I'm sorry to sound arrogant, but I can give you 5 reasons why I disagree with you:
1. My 55 gallon reef
2. My 110 gallon FOWLR
3. My 24 gallon nano
4. My 120 gallon freshwater planted
5. My 55 gallon Chiclid
No, success is certainly not measured by your number of tanks, but it would certainly be expensive to be failing 5 times... time has proven my "stuck" ways successful.
Long story short... dude you have 19 posts and you've been a member of this board for less than a month. Why not give us a chance before you blast people on here?

 

[geridoc]

As someone who has been keeping marine fish for 35 years, let me chime in here, especially about the overcrowding issue. When I first started, keeping a fish for a few months was an accomplishment, so eventual adult size wasn't an issue. Then, about 15-20 years ago the technology and knowledge improved, and life expectancy got much longer (I, and many others on this board have had individual fish survive beyond 10 years, and my current average is almost 7 years). However, not many fish grew to full size, even if they lived a long time. In my mind, the most exciting development in marine fishkeeping is the present ability to keep fish alive and see them grow to full size. So when you say that you kept a yellow tang in your tank for 4 years and it was comfortable because it didn't grow, you are wrong - you have kept a fish that was stunted because of some fault in the water or diet quality. Do the job right, and that fish will outgrow that tank in short order. So, yes, keep your tang in a 55 using poor maintenance practices and it will not be overcrowded. But that doesn't make you an accomplished or successful fishkeeper - it makes you a warden on death row.

 

[hot883]

I removed the link to the product. Out of respect to the owners of this site, links to other stores, products, forums etc. are not allowed.

 

[jason490]

Hot883,
Thanks for having the kahones to say you took the link off. Not sure I understand that practice on the board, but whatever. I won't give a link next time, I will just call the product "Right Now Bacteria"

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jason490
Good points from all of you and I am glad you like the way you do things, to each his own.
I kept freshwater tanks for years upon years and never lost a fish. Everyone used to tell me "you need to let that tank cycle". You know what, I bought a tank, took it home, put the water and chlorine killer in it, added fish, bam everything lived for the duration.
I know the saltwater cycle is different, but I had a yellow tang for 4 years in a 55g tank and never had one problem with him. Sure if you put a 10 inch tang or something in one, then yea that is way to small. But lets get real, most tangs are of the 2-4 inch variety and will stay that way for some time.
Well my private messaging is turned off, my email on the board is turned off, not sure if this is everyones case. Also the link I posted to a product that I have absolutely nothing to do with was removed. What's the matter? You scared it actually works?
I see links posted here all the time. I do not however judge SWF.com for the tards on this board. I continue to buy from them and always will.
Smork81, you continue to enjoy that tang. What people here don't understand is that fish was originally in the ocean or meant to be. Unless they can provide a million gallon tank, he is a fish for your enjoyment.
FW and SW tanks, as you say, are different ball games.
A Yellow Tang should not stay 2-4 inches for years... Furthermore, even my young Purple Tang will swim the length of my 180. No one is saying 6 feet tanks are paradise for Tangs. What they are saying is that they are the minimum size needed..
Private messaging and email are disabled on these forums. Links are not allowed that lead to competitor sites, forums, etc. Not sure which Mod deleted it but I'm sure that is why. As for the product... like I said, if your tank is Ich free in 5 years let's have this discussion again. It won't be... study up on the life cycle of marine ich to see why.
Please don't insult the posters of this forum. Many, many members here have been running successful, disease free tanks for years.
You are correct, we keep the fish for our enjoyment. Many of us, however, also believe we keep our tanks to educate the people around us who don't have tanks or knowledge of our oceans and reefs. Fish in aquariums, like zoo animals, Sea World Whales, etc, are ambassadors of sorts. It is your job as a pet owner to provide proper habitat for your pets.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
You are correct, we keep the fish for our enjoyment. Many of us, however, also believe we keep our tanks to educate the people around us who don't have tanks or knowledge of our oceans and reefs. Fish in aquariums, like zoo animals, Sea World Whales, etc, are ambassadors of sorts. It is your job as a pet owner to provide proper habitat for your pets.

Well said, and you are right, many of us do believe that.
Many of us respect the animals. That doesn't necessarily make us animal rights activists, but it's a disparagement of the hobby to think of the animals as objects we can play God with at will. There is a real high to watching the animals in your care not only survive, but thrive, and ultimately, reproduce in some cases.

 

[lion_crazz]

As everyone else posted, the only true advice that you gave was the first statement. After that, everything in your post went downhill, very fast.
Most importantly, there is no product on the market that will kill ich in a reef or live rock aquarium. Copper or hyposalinity are the only ways you will be able to get rid of ich for good.
Unfortunately, your anemone will soon be dead under normal strip lighting, as well.
I hope that you do not have to learn the error in your practices the hard way.

 

[ice4ice]

I'm going to have to agree with hott883 with his response. I have come to respect him as well as others : Bang Guy, 1journeyman, Beth, etc ... for their knowledge, wisdom, & advice. My hats off to you guys/girls.

 

[smork81]

Quote from jason 490
"Smork81, you continue to enjoy that tang. What people here don't understand is that fish was originally in the ocean or meant to be. Unless they can provide a million gallon tank, he is a fish for your enjoyment."
My yellow tang is a hottie!~! it has grown very well since i have had him and never been sick or had ick :cheer: It's a great specimen!!!!!
thanks jason490
-nika